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Thread: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

  1. #521
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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    If prop 8 is Constitutional, what is to prevent California from passing a law that strips other Constitutional rights? The answer is nothing. Constitutional rights under the California Constitution are currently subject to the whim of the majority.
    Damned if this wasn't the first statement on Constitutional law you got right.

    Of course, you left out the part about that being based on the structure of the California Constitution (Article 18, 3 & 4):
    CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
    ARTICLE 18 AMENDING AND REVISING THE CONSTITUTION


    SEC. 3. The electors may amend the Constitution by initiative.



    CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
    ARTICLE 18 AMENDING AND REVISING THE CONSTITUTION


    SEC. 4. A proposed amendment or revision shall be submitted to the
    electors and if approved by a majority of votes thereon takes effect
    the day after the election unless the measure provides otherwise.
    If
    provisions of 2 or more measures approved at the same election
    conflict, those of the measure receiving the highest affirmative vote
    shall prevail.
    Thus, in California, rights are determined by the majority rule--by their own choice.

    Maybe not the most prudent mode for amending a constitution (hey, this IS Cali we're talking about!), but it is the law of California until such time as the voters opt to amend it.

    Oh, and you also left out the bit about California law having to fit within the stricture of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution.

  2. #522
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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    it's not specifically in the CA constitution, is it? as in, it was interpreted to be there by the judges?
    You're engaging in circular reasoning. It is in the California Constitution because the California Constitution like most Constitutions ensures equal protection under the laws. If the state chooses to engage in granting marriage licenses, it must do so in a manner that does not violate equal protection. This means that the government should not place limitations based on a person's sexual orientation to enter into a legal contract.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Damned if this wasn't the first statement on Constitutional law you got right.

    Of course, you left out the part about that being based on the structure of the California Constitution (Article 18, 3 & 4):


    Thus, in California, rights are determined by the majority rule--by their own choice.

    Maybe not the most prudent mode for amending a constitution (hey, this IS Cali we're talking about!), but it is the law of California until such time as the voters opt to amend it.

    Oh, and you also left out the bit about California law having to fit within the stricture of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution.
    But that is exactly what the California Supreme Court is in the process of determing right now. Whether such a scheme that allows Constitutional rights to be eliminated by the whim of the majority is itself Constitutional.
    I think they probably will rule that it is...but this battle is far from over. This battle will inevitably be won, if not tomorrow, then the day after that, but certainly the trend ensures that it is inevitable...and as goes California, soon will go the Country. We're already seeing it in the heartland of America.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It was recognised by judicial activism; by arbitrary power. At least prop 8 was not that.
    "Judical activism" is nothing more than a right-wing label to place upon rulings that they disagree with.
    There is just as much "activism" on the right, if not more, than there is on the left. Especially coming from Scalia, Thomas and Scalito.

    The Judicial Branch has always been involved with interpreting laws. There are over 200 years of jurisprudence/caselaw on the books. That is what the study of law is all about.

    But its easy to sell the ignorant masses on the idea that Courts should not make law and the rest of the right-wing B.S. because the masses tend to follow a 15 second sound bite. The reality is, Courts have and always will be involved in creating law.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    "Judical activism" is nothing more than a right-wing label to place upon rulings that they disagree with.
    Nope it is a label that when used accurately refers to the ignoring of precedent and tradition and the redefining of terms changing constitutions to mere guidelines and the rule of law to naught. It is nothing but the arbitrary power of a partial judicial dictatorship and should be fought as all arbitrary power should.
    There is just as much "activism" on the right, if not more, than there is on the left. Especially coming from Scalia, Thomas and Scalito.
    If that is true it as bad.
    The Judicial Branch has always been involved with interpreting laws. There are over 200 years of jurisprudence/caselaw on the books. That is what the study of law is all about.


    Judicial activism is in direct contradiction to that tradition.

    But its easy to sell the ignorant masses on the idea that Courts should not make law and the rest of the right-wing B.S. because the masses tend to follow a 15 second sound bite. The reality is, Courts have and always will be involved in creating law.
    And it as easy to sell the ignorant that courts should have the arbitrary power to make laws when it is something that is good.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Nope it is a label that when used accurately refers to the ignoring of precedent and tradition and the redefining of terms changing constitutions to mere guidelines and the rule of law to naught. It is nothing but the arbitrary power of a partial judicial dictatorship and should be fought as all arbitrary power should.
    If that is true it as bad.



    Judicial activism is in direct contradiction to that tradition.

    And it as easy to sell the ignorant that courts should have the arbitrary power to make laws when it is something that is good.
    I can't say that I disagree with your post in a theoretical sense. However, in application it is quite different. You can point to pretty much every decision that is labeled "Judicial Activism" by the right-wing and see that it does not involve ignoring precedent, but is actually based on logical application of that precedent.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I can't say that I disagree with your post in a theoretical sense. However, in application it is quite different. You can point to pretty much every decision that is labeled "Judicial Activism" by the right-wing and see that it does not involve ignoring precedent, but is actually based on logical application of that precedent.
    I would not know about that but I can certainly see that things like randomly redefining marriage or equal protection or happiness or privacy to allow much things as gay marriage or federal control of abortion by a judiciary is judicial activism.

    I'm not against gay marriage personally, I simply don't think this is the right way to go about getting it legalised.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I would not know about that but I can certainly see that things like randomly redefining marriage or equal protection or happiness or privacy to allow much things as gay marriage or federal control of abortion by a judiciary is judicial activism.

    I'm not against gay marriage personally, I simply don't think this is the right way to go about getting it legalised.
    There is no "Random" redefining of marriage. It is actually a very well supported decision based on years of legal precedent and logical application of equal protection jurisprudence.
    To put it simply, if the government involves itself in allowing people to enter into legal contracts, why should the government involve itself it defining who should be able to enter into that contract based on race, gender, age or sexual orientation. Its actually very logical
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    You're engaging in circular reasoning. It is in the California Constitution because the California Constitution like most Constitutions ensures equal protection under the laws. If the state chooses to engage in granting marriage licenses, it must do so in a manner that does not violate equal protection. This means that the government should not place limitations based on a person's sexual orientation to enter into a legal contract.
    circular reasoning...I was just asking because I don't remember. believe it or not I don't think much about gay marriage in my daily life. it's been months since I've even heard anyone talk about it, except on this website.

    anyway like I was saying to bodhisattva, I don't know that you can claim it's a limitation based on a person's sexual orientation so much as it's based on a couple's orientation, and couples don't really have rights do they?

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I can't say that I disagree with your post in a theoretical sense. However, in application it is quite different. You can point to pretty much every decision that is labeled "Judicial Activism" by the right-wing and see that it does not involve ignoring precedent, but is actually based on logical application of that precedent.
    You mean the way Roe v Wade was the logical application of the precedent of substantive due process set forth in Dred Scott v Sanford

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