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Thread: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

  1. #511
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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Marriage has been recognized as a fundamental right.
    Regardless, Constitutional Equal Protection applies to privileges granted by states as well as those that are considered "fundamental rights"
    1. The term "fundamental right" is a vernacular redundancy; all rights are fundamental. Whichever legal genius coined that term deserves a proper slap.

    2. A state-sanctioned marriage is not a right, "fundamental" or otherwise. A positive obligation from an unwilling party is not a right, it's coercion. As I said to Jerry, I am under no obligation to recognize or validate your lifestyle choices nor am I obligated to confer benefits upon you because of those lifestyle choies.

    You, like many other Americans, have a distorted view of rights. Jefferson said:

    "Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819 [1].

    Rights are not entitlements, they are negative obligations which require the inaction (not the action) of second parties. A state-sanctioned marriage obliges my recognition and defference, hence it is not a right. Also, I'm waiting for you to adress my previous post.

    [1] - Jefferson on Politics & Government: Inalienable Rights

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Also. the freedom to practice NO religion. That negates the absolute need for religion.
    That is not an argument like TNE's, the conclusion does not follow from the premise. The fact the FF's knew that the people needed to be moral and religious because they were the people the constitution was designed for is not negated by freedom of religion. It is made slightly harder to always have such a people but other benefits were thought to flow from it without it necessarily endangering the necessary virtues of the people.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    We never finalised that, and I am not sure that I agree with your position as it is.
    it isn't gender or orientation discrimination on an individual level, because individuals of any gender or orientation may enter the married state as it now exists, provided they are of age, unmarried, etc.

    if anything, couples are being discriminated against as units, based on their composition, which is to say, the combination of genders. I'm not entirely sure that a unit has the same rights an individual has.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    it isn't gender or orientation discrimination on an individual level, because individuals of any gender or orientation may enter the married state as it now exists, provided they are of age, unmarried, etc.

    if anything, couples are being discriminated against as units, based on their composition, which is to say, the combination of genders. I'm not entirely sure that a unit has the same rights an individual has.
    Good point. I guess that I have viewed as a "unit" discrimination based off of orientation. The unit being the two to be married. If they are both men, they can not marry each other, but if one is a man and the other a woman, then they can.

    I don't view this as an individual discrimination issue, but as a unit one I guess... if that makes sense.
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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    He s talking about the Tyranny of the Majority. But I think you already knew that
    The thing is that the best guard against the Tyranny of the majority is certainly not the centralised, arbitrary power of judicial activism.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by emdash View Post
    please explain this part, disneydude.
    Easy. Gay Marriage was recognized as a Constitutional right under the California Constitution. You can disagree with whether or not it should, but there is not debating that it was a recognized Constitutional right. Prop 8 removed that right by a simple majority 50%+1 vote.
    State referendum procedures vary from state to state. However, prop 8 revealed that in California, it is possible to remove Constitutional rights by a simple majority vote.
    If prop 8 is Constitutional, what is to prevent California from passing a law that strips other Constitutional rights? The answer is nothing. Constitutional rights under the California Constitution are currently subject to the whim of the majority.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I can't be any more clear. Its called "THE EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE OF THE UNITED STATE CONSTITUTION".

    It goes a little something like this..."no state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".
    They have equal protection to marry anyone of the opposite sex. You want them to have equal protection to marry people of the same sex. Both kinds are equality and equal protection.

    As shown above, generalised calls to equality generally mean little. Just as equal right to property, in the sense of being able to own property, and equal right to property, in the sense of all owning the same amount of property, are both equality and equal protection.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Easy. Gay Marriage was recognized as a Constitutional right under the California Constitution. You can disagree with whether or not it should, but there is not debating that it was a recognized Constitutional right. Prop 8 removed that right by a simple majority 50%+1 vote.
    State referendum procedures vary from state to state. However, prop 8 revealed that in California, it is possible to remove Constitutional rights by a simple majority vote.
    If prop 8 is Constitutional, what is to prevent California from passing a law that strips other Constitutional rights? The answer is nothing. Constitutional rights under the California Constitution are currently subject to the whim of the majority.
    it's not specifically in the CA constitution, is it? as in, it was interpreted to be there by the judges?

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Good point. I guess that I have viewed as a "unit" discrimination based off of orientation. The unit being the two to be married. If they are both men, they can not marry each other, but if one is a man and the other a woman, then they can.

    I don't view this as an individual discrimination issue, but as a unit one I guess... if that makes sense.
    but DO units--self-formed ones at that--have rights aside from the rights each member has as an individual?

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Easy. Gay Marriage was recognized as a Constitutional right under the California Constitution. You can disagree with whether or not it should, but there is not debating that it was a recognized Constitutional right. Prop 8 removed that right by a simple majority 50%+1 vote.
    State referendum procedures vary from state to state. However, prop 8 revealed that in California, it is possible to remove Constitutional rights by a simple majority vote.
    If prop 8 is Constitutional, what is to prevent California from passing a law that strips other Constitutional rights? The answer is nothing. Constitutional rights under the California Constitution are currently subject to the whim of the majority.
    It was recognised by judicial activism; by arbitrary power. At least prop 8 was not that.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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