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Thread: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

  1. #221
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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Indeed, a signature victory....

    A victory for those who wish to impose their will without regard to the processes of republican democracy.

    A victory for those who childishly scream "I want" but remain clueless of the larger context of their demands.

    A victory for those who demonize the beliefs and ideals of others.

    A distinctly un-American victory. As you love this country, your tears should be regretful and not rejoicing.
    It is a signature victory. When even Mid-America begins to recognize it, the battle is won....if not tomorrow, then the day after that.

    Its not about imposing "will" its about recognizing that America stands for equal protection in that same way giving blacks civil rights or women the right to vote was not about imposing "will".

    Screaming "I want"....that is those who say "I want to impose my view of marriage on everyone else." Those of us who support gay marriage don't "want" to impose that view on anyone who doesn't believe in it. People who don't support gay marriage are still free to their beliefs, they just won't be able to impose their "wants" on everyone else.

    "Demonizing the beliefs and ideals of others"? Pul-lease!
    As I said...people are still free to have their beliefs, they just cannot impose their beliefs on everyone else.

    If everyone would just adhere to the simple belief that "You right to your beliefs extend until they impinge on anothers"...the world would be a much better place.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Keep telling yourself that Jerry. The reality is...it has EVERYTHING to do with equality. That's the point of equal protection
    That's one way to ignore my argument, sure.

    What right were heteros in Iowa being denied?
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-04-09 at 11:48 PM.

  3. #223
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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Too easy Jerry. Procreation as a reason for the state to have a compelling interest in marriage is negated by the fact that obtaining a marriage license is not contingent on the agreement to have children. If it were, since marriage is a contract, if a couple decided to not procreate, the marriage license would be void. This does not occur. Adoption is also a piece that indicates that child-rearing, not procreation is the component that is being addressed. Child-rearing is one of the reasons the state has a compelling interest in marriage, but not the only one. Health and creating a stable society are also reasons. These things are accomplished by both hetero-sexual and homo-sexual marriages.
    The great French reactionary Bonald deals with this argument in his tract On Divorce where he attacks the revolutionary legislation that allowed divorce(which he later helped to overturn under the restoration.).

    He states that marriage is a contract(in terms reminiscent of Burke's ideas on the social contract.)but it is actually a contract with three parties, the spouses and the children who are to spring from it and require the nurture of a stable familial relationship, therefore to dissolve it is according to the will of the two spouses is to rob both society, which requires offspring and stable families, and the children themselves, even if they are not yet born. And even in the case of no children that is no excuse, it devalues the nature of marriage in society for a course which will not necessarily produce children itself(ie a second marriage.).

    I'm not sure I agree with him completely on divorce but he makes some interesting points that at least should be aired when people trot out views on marriage as if it is just a contract like any other.

    But the main point is that the fact marriage licenses do not contain the agreement to produce children and give them a stable familial setting, does not mean this is not an important role of the congenial family, if not the most important. An institution can have important roles that differ from its usual ideational place in a society, in fact they can be far more important.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 04-05-09 at 12:40 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    But the main point is that the fact marriage licenses do not contain the agreement to produce children and give them a stable familial setting, does not mean this is not an important role of the congenial family, if not the most important. An institution can have important roles that differ from its usual ideational place in a society, in fact they can be far more important.
    If it is not a contractual meaning to prodcue children than a contract of marriage doesn't matter whether they produce or not.

    So why is a gay couple that raises children any less of parents than a hetero couple that raises children.

    I've seen gay parents raise children and I've seen hetero parents raise children, both can do the job just fine.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest Lib View Post
    You say that as if it an entirely bad thing.
    At least you're honest and willing to admit that yes this and other similar cases are judicial activism. That is refreshing for a liberal.

    It is bad because it is one small, elite body making laws and social policy with little accountability. It is an example of arbitrary power and threatens the rule of law and the separation of powers.

    The separation of powers requires each branch to be sovereign in its role but judicial activism allows the the judiciary to become sovereign over all branches in a way(although ultimately and most dangerously of all leaving it open for co-opting by the executive.).

    If you despise arbitrary power and despostism then it is a bad thing.
    Have good changes brought on in the past not been brought up in a similar way.
    This is a confusion of means and ends that goes right to heart of many of the problems of modern liberalism. The ends may be great but that does not justify any means in bringing them about.

    Its, in fact, part of what state and federal SC's do. Whether or not you agree with their "activism" depends solely on whether or not you share the same views to begin with.
    It has never been part of their official role, it is simply a power they have taken onto themselves and makes them so dangerous. Thomas Jefferson and some of the anti-federalists have been shown to be right.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 04-05-09 at 12:41 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    It is a signature victory. When even Mid-America begins to recognize it, the battle is won....if not tomorrow, then the day after that.
    Mid-America didn't recognize it. Your own link even says it. Lambda a NY based special interest group filed the lawsuit.

    Try to keep up with the facts in your own thread.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    If it is not a contractual meaning to prodcue children than a contract of marriage doesn't matter whether they produce or not.
    What do you mean? It does not have to be in the license for that to be an important social role of marriage. That is my point in the same way any institution usually does more, and often more important things, than what its central ideational role is.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Too easy Jerry. Procreation as a reason for the state to have a compelling interest in marriage is negated by the fact that obtaining a marriage license is not contingent on the agreement to have children. If it were, since marriage is a contract, if a couple decided to not procreate, the marriage license would be void. This does not occur. Adoption is also a piece that indicates that child-rearing, not procreation is the component that is being addressed. Child-rearing is one of the reasons the state has a compelling interest in marriage, but not the only one. Health and creating a stable society are also reasons. These things are accomplished by both hetero-sexual and homo-sexual marriages.
    Capt'n, it's like questioning a mod action on this board.

    A given incident may not be that bad, and in fact many acts of questioning mod actions may be relatively harmless or 3 point infractions at worst.

    However, a strict rule with rigid enforcement and a harsh penalty needs to be in place to preserve the overall cohesiveness of many threads over a long period of time.

    If you begin to allow exceptions to the rule then the rule is chipped away at, more and more threads degrade into bickering over rules technicalities (= your refrences to adoption and infertile hetero couples), more and more questions are pressed and challenges made until finally the mod's authority collapses.

    The same concept is true of marriage. Gay marriage itself may not be so bad, but the more we allow people to chip away at the rule the less meaning and authority that rule has; until finally it the social bond itself collapses.
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-05-09 at 12:43 AM.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It does not have to be in the license for that to be an important social role of marriage.
    Well there are people that can't have kids that get involved with marriages. So your point is moot.

    Either Marriage is a contract that means you will produce kids or it is a contract in where the production of kids doesn't matter.

    The fact is marriage is a contract where the production of kids doesn't matter.

    So bringing up that marriage CAN produce kids doesn't make it ANYWAY a matter of legality. Case closed on that. Come up with a better reason.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    I know it's futile to post in such a flooded thread, but it's my
    human duty to say this: with the problems we face today,
    it doesn't matter. This issue is just a diversion.
    Take the red pill.

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