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Thread: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I did read the entire decision and provided the relevant constitutional provisions to back up the position of the court. The court followed the law of the constitution, therefore, it is not judicial activism. The ruling was based on law.
    It is completely redefing how the equal protection provision was historically determined, this is the court determining social policy. It is a classic case of judicial activism.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Perhaps, it is also like saying the equal right to property doesn't mean everyone has the right to the same amount of property.

    The point is that equal is not always a straightforward category. Your point supports and does not take away from mine.
    Comparing property rights to people's rights? Sorry you lost this one. Just admit it.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Comparing property rights to people's rights? Sorry you lost this one. Just admit it.
    This passage above is not an argument. It is a pretty lame attempt at flaming and baiting.

    Anyway I'm not attacking gay marriage, I'm mildy supportive/don't care about that subject. I'm attacking judicial activism; liberal committees on public safety.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This passage above is not an argument. It is a pretty lame attempt at flaming and baiting.

    Anyway I'm not attacking gay marriage, I'm mildy supportive/don't care about that subject. I'm attacking judicial activism; liberal committees on public safety.
    The main arguments from Anti-Gay Marriage proponents are this:


    #1: God doesn't want it:

    Well many people don't follow that religion. So deal with it. The U.S. is not a theocracy so what "God" says about anything should be a moot point unless some nutball wants the U.S. to be a theocracy.

    #2: Gays choose to be gay. This is funny because did you choose to be heterosexual or were you attracted to the opposite sex without choice? Why would someone CHOOSE to be ostracized in society and just choose to be attracted to the opposite sex? The simple reasoning is that they don't choose who they are attracted to.


    #3: Think about the children......

    Well, again sorry there are plenty of gay parents that have raised children that have been better than children that STRAIGHT people have raised, so the whole gay parents raise gay children is debunked.

    Bottom line, is there is no reason for gay marriage to be illegal.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    The main arguments from Anti-Gay Marriage proponents are this:


    #1: God doesn't want it:

    Well many people don't follow that religion. So deal with it. The U.S. is not a theocracy so what "God" says about anything should be a moot point unless some nutball wants the U.S. to be a theocracy.

    #2: Gays choose to be gay. This is funny because did you choose to be heterosexual or were you attracted to the opposite sex without choice? Why would someone CHOOSE to be ostracized in society and just choose to be attracted to the opposite sex? The simple reasoning is that they don't choose who they are attracted to.


    #3: Think about the children......

    Well, again sorry there are plenty of gay parents that have raised children that have been better than children that STRAIGHT people have raised, so the whole gay parents raise gay children is debunked.

    Bottom line, is there is no reason for gay marriage to be illegal.
    And this has what to do with mny comments? My argument is anti-judicial activism not anti-gay marriage. The actual issue doesn't matter much.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Men are ONLY prohibited from marrying men. They can marry any other gender they want. So how is that different?
    That is dumbest post on this thread so far, and that's saying something.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Says the bible thumper, I love it.

    You don 't matter Jerry.

    Your whole argument is based on emotion. God says no is your forte.
    WTF is that?

    I do NOTHING to actively oppose gay-marriage.

    Try giving some substance to your argument. You might begin by reading the SCOTUS decisions you are referring to.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Sure it does. Did you choose to be heterosexual or were you just NATURALLY attracted to the opposite sex?
    ???
    Who said I was heterosexual to begin with?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That seems pretty straightforward. It doesn't really take a great deal of interpretation in this case.
    Read the Courts decision and you will see that it isn't that straight forward, but full of interpretation.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    The main arguments from Anti-Gay Marriage proponents are this:
    #1: ...

    #2: ...

    #3: ...



    Bottom line, is there is no reason for gay marriage to be illegal.
    Main? Hardly.
    Those are not the only arguments either.

    Bottom line, there is no reason for the usurpation of the term 'marriage' and the establishment of a new right in doing so.


    I find it funny that the homosexual community wants to be respected, but in turn, show great disrespect in their attempted efforts to get there.
    Last edited by Coolguy; 04-04-09 at 02:57 AM.

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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Except that you are making a false argument. The reason for the IASC ruling had nothing to do with the "government reasons for supporting marriage" if that were the sole basis, marriage would only be granted to couples with intent to procreate, ergo homosexuals would be ineligible based on biology.
    You are incorrect. A government reason for supporting marriage is to assist in the rearing of children. No mention of procreation. Since couples that choose not to have children can adopt and follow through with this standard, homosexual couples can do the same. This is the argument that, eventually, in my view, will win the day for gay marriage.

    Of course we can go around that with adoptions and turkey baster kids, but that's not the point.
    It is completely the point since the government's support for marriage is based on child rearing, not on child procreation.

    Two men and a woman wish to be married. They point out that the two men can earn enough to raise their two children the three have, and the woman can stay home and take care of the children better then any two of them could.

    Thus the government need is met. And since the courts have determined two men may marry, for fairness, what basis have you for denying three?

    See how easy that was?
    Please show some evidence that polygamous marriage rears children as healthy and able to function as children of hetero- and homosexual marriage. There is plenty of data on both of those. I do not see why the government should support something unless there is some data showing it is helpful.

    Also, child-rearing is not the only reason that the government sanctions marriage, though it is the most prominent. Family stability and social stability are also important components. This is where polygamy falls short.

    But, you see, this entire, "if we allow homosexual marriage, polygamy is next" argument is extraordinarily weak, considering that the similarities between the two do not exist. Allow me to explain from both an individual and a societal standpoint. And Jerry. This may be the post you have been waiting for.

    First. let us take a look at the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. The striking difference is obvious. Homosexuals have a sexual orientation towards those of the same sex, whereas heterosexuals have a sexual orientation towards those of the opposite sex. Why would a heterosexual woman want to marry a man? Sexual orientation. Why would a homosexual man want to marry a man? Sexual orientation. Clearly, from an individual standpoint, this is a, if not the main reason for one wanting to marry a specific other. Love, attraction, emotion. Now, this does not justify gay marriage being validated, and, in fact is a weak argument that I never make. Love, attraction, and emotion does not benefit the state, which is why marriage exists. However, polygamy does not fit well in the criteria that I have identified. There is no polygamous sexual orientation. Polygamy is, typically, a heterosexual orientation, covered already. However, being that there is no polygamous sexual orientation, using this, a mainstay of the individual reason for marriage, will not work or apply. Therefore, polygamy from an individual standpoint, does not meet the same criteria for marriage as do homosexuals or heterosexuals. Lack of orientation.

    Now, we move into the societal realm. Government supports marriage for a few reasons. The productive rearing of children is most important. Creating a stable family life is also key: it adds to the positive potential for healthy children, but it also creates healthy adults. There is plenty of evidence to support the theory that those who live in a healthy, stable, committed relationship, are happier, healthier, and are more productive members of society. These are all things that benefit the state. Research shows that, regardless of sexual orientation, gay or straight, folks who live in these kinds of committed relationships, do better, and rear children better, than those who do not. This is regardless of sexual orientation. This is the second piece of the argument that will, eventually win the day for gay marriage. Polygamy does not offer the same benefits. And the answer to "why" is simple, and is psychological in nature. Jealousy, rivalry, and inconsistency. Just like my argument that psychology cannot be separated from economics, hence, because of greed, pure forms of both socialism and libertarianism are destined to be complete failures, neither can human psychology be separated from this issue. What is the number one cause of divorce? Adultery. Why? Jealousy and rivalry. In a multi-partner marriage, it would be impossible for their not to be some sort of hierarchy, and even if this is agreed upon, one cannot eliminate one's emotions. With this type of emotional instability at the familial structure's core, a healthy, committed relationship, similar to that of a single partner marriage, could not be obtained. Further, the inconsistency in caretaking responsibilities and in child rearing responsibilities, compounded by the hierarchies and rivalries will harm the children, affecting their functioning. We already see some of this in divorced families, where inconsistent rules, non-existent co-parenting, and rivalries, negatively affect children.

    Lastly, though there is plenty of research that supports both heterosexual and homosexual unions as being beneficial, there is none that supports polygamy.

    All of this shows how there is not correlation nor slippery slope from homosexual to polygamous marriage. Polygamy, for the reasons I identified, is not only a very different animal than homosexual marriage, but has none of the similar benefits to the state that the government currently sees marriage as.

    Polygamy as a reaction to homosexual marriage is a smokescreen and an invalid comparison.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Iowa Court says gay marriage ban unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Actually, it would be much easier for you to list those benefits to the government that plural marriage doesn't offer.

    This should be good.
    I asked the question, first. Your move.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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