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Thread: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Because they don't want anyone else getting involved with their neighbor. China doesn't support U.S. aims in Korea, but that doesn't make it a friend of North Korea. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. There is a big difference between blocking a security council resolution and actively giving missile technology that might be turned on its provider.
    China is a state of despots that will do anything to take a cheap shot at the U.S.

    If China is supporting North Korea, any damage done by North Korea is partially China's fault. PERIOD.

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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    They are insane. They have been disconnected from reality to such an extent that they are collectively insane. They are taught from kindergarten to worship their Dear Leader. "Kim-il Sung created the world." "The DPRK is paradise." "The Americans are baby killing Imperialists who invaded North Korea," etc.
    You are confusing propaganda used to control a captive populace with actual mental insanity. Their methodology may seem insane, but it's not. It's quite effective and has served their ends.

    They're not seeking the destruction of their own nation,
    I agree, which is why I made the effort to drill down deeper into this discussion.

    but their world view may be perverted to such an extent that they believe they can win or that they can invade the South without being hurt because they possess nuclear weapons.
    We can assume many things about their motives for wanting nuclear weapons. I'm not sure what you mean by their "world view" being "perverted" but I think that from a military strategy point of view, the idea that an offensive nuclear capability makes you a power player and gives you some latitude to conduct offensive operations...well that's not perverted at all. It's reality. At least when confronting a non-nuclear nation. But then, the U.S. doesn't fit into that category.

    The idea that these weapons are being developed soley as bargaining chips is bizarre and naive.
    I don't know who ever suggested that, I know I certainly didn't. Nuclear weapons are a deterrent to would be invaders. However their value quickly dries up when you attempt to blackmail another nuclear armed nation like the U.S. The North Korean military is not retarded. They are very well aware of their own capability versus that of their adversaries. The notion that they even remotely believe they would be able to invade the South with conventional forces and the U.S./ROK would stand down and let it happen because they have nukes isn't even reasonable. Nuclear weapons make your nation an unappealing target for invasion.


    I disagree.
    On what grounds?

    Stupid is as stupid does. They've run their nation into the ground.
    I agree, but that doesn't mean their military is incompetent. The nation survives in spite of itself. Primarily due to their Chinese benefactor. The military first orientation is certainly not healthy for the nation. But when you control the population with an iron fist, caring little for your citizens, and you have a massive welfare system that feeds your state and enables you to maintain....then "running your nation into the ground" means little if your military capacity is intact. And that is the problem. You seem to think that this translates into a weakened military state, when in fact it's the opposite. They have one of the largest active military forces in the world. They retain a focused operational profile oriented towards offensive operations against the South.

    Ha! North Korea has one of the weakest and most technologically unsophisticated militaries in the entire world. This is a product of the fact they've run their economy into the ground. North Korea's indigenous military equipment is a throwback to the 50's. They're crude copies of Chinese and Soviet technology.
    I find this statement somewhat perplexing, and I have to ask...what do you know that the Pentagon does not? Our own government is far from positive about the full military capacity and capability of the DPRK. What we do know tells a slightly different story than what you are claiming.

    North Korea is far from "one of the weakest and most technologically unsophisticated military's in the entire world." I don't know if you heard about this, but they developed and detonated a nuclear weapon. They most likely have several devices by now. Do you know what kind of technological capability that takes? Even "crude" nuclear weapons are a technological feat. They are getting ready to launch a satellite into orbit on a rocket they produced themselves. They have their own indigenous frequency hopping radio communications equipment, a complex fiber optic communications network linking hundreds of forward deployed underground bunker facilities and military posts, they have developed a North Korean version of the T-90 main battle tank (albeit in few numbers), they maintain a robust chemical warfare capability (they have several facilities that have produced a wide variety of chemical agents which are deployed and stockpiled) and they have the worlds largest asymmetrical warfare program (it's fully twice the size of the U.S. capability). They can deploy over 100,000 highly trained and well equipped special operations troops. They have developed a very complex network of hardened underground installations and tunnels that can facilitate the movement of men, machines, munitions, and other supplies undetected.

    You seem to scoff at the idea that their equipment is "old" or "outdated" but 5,000 conventional artillery pieces deployed from hidden positions can wreak havoc, especially if our forward bases are suffering from disruptions caused by a large and decentralized covert warfare campaign being waged behind our lines. The Kalashnikov rifle to be old, but it's still a very effective killing machine, very reliable, and in the right hands will do the job. Send 600,000 highly motivated and loyal soldiers across the 38th, supported by 2,000 "old" tanks, under the cover of several thousand artillery pieces firing ...you are not going to just be shooting fish in a barrel.

    Unsophisticated? Compared to the U.S. sure. Weak? Compared to many nations of the world...hardly. Laser guided bombs and fast moving tanks will only get you so far in the rugged, mountainous terrain of the Korean Peninsula. The lesson here? Don't underestimate a man with a rifle and the will to die for his cause. I'd take a platoon of Marines and their small arms over an F-18 when it comes to securing a rugged mountain pass. Grunts secure and hold ground. You get enough of them into our territory and we start losing air bases, supply depots, and rail lines. Do you know what happens to an Army when that occurs? That scenario is one that has been lamented by U.S. commanders on the Korean Peninsula for decades. It's a very real threat. The North maintains a large numerical advantage to the South, 2-1 in ground combat forces and equipment. And that is what war on the Peninsula will amount to, men on the ground. The KPA is not the Iraqi Army.

    Yeah, right... If you want to peacefully explore space, there are ways of doing it. For instance if they had shown the world there satellite, revealed the communications frequencies, revealed the projected orbit, etc. then I might believe them. They've given me no reason to believe them and they have a LONG history of lying. They lie like they breathe. If I can trust them, I can trust anybody.
    Who said anything about peacefully exploring space? I said they are most likely using this to study their rocket/missile production work, refine it, and improve it. No doubt this will be applied to their military applications.

    Did you see my post regarding what I would do if I was the president? If this things a threat and we know it, I would go Cuban Missile Crisis style and reveal our intelligence to the world after shooting it down. The supposed lack of HUMINT assets in N.K. means that our intelligence might be too sketchy to know what the hell this thing is, though. That adds a huge element of risk.
    Well sure there is a huge amount of risk. But when we have so little actual intelligence we have to rely on sound military logic and some degree of reason. So the problem here is that we don't really know if it's an actual threat right? I mean that's why we are having this particular discussion. We could easily assume that based upon their military profile and political ideology that this rocket is a threat...but to whom? To what? So we really have no choice but to let it launch and tracks it's trajectory. I think if we had intelligence that it was a threat we would have already taken the "Cubam Missile Crisis" approach and exposed it to the world in an attempt to shut the launch down. Knowing it's a threat, but saying nothing, then pulling the trigger just before or just after the launch, and then revealing the nature of the threat, will do little for our case and most likely result in a shooting war. During the Cuban Missile Crisis our strategy was "reveal the threat before we shoot."

    "For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." -Sun Tzu

    North Korea is making war inevitable. If we must fight N.K., it should be done on favorable conditions. While now is hardly the ideal time for a war considering our strategic posture and the circumstances of our economy, how much more difficult will it be with a nuclear NK in the future? How many lives can be saved by disarming them now? Is there a better way?
    Well North Korea is already a nuclear power. We know this. They detonated a bomb, and we have no idea how many devices they actually have. There are no favorable conditions from which to fight North Korea right now. As you alluded to, our military is stretched far too thin right now, and the North knows this. We would be very hard pressed to reinforce our units there to any meaningful degree should the balloon go up. We do not have the military capacity at this moment to disarm North Korea. Their defensive capability is far too strong. We aren't talking about Iraq here. They not only have WMD's, they literally have thousands of weapons stockpiles and millions of service age men that can be mobilized in defense of the nation. Even with the full assistance of our allies we would not win if we invaded North Korea right now. It would be an NBC nightmare.

    I can only speculate. The best I can say is let's wait for the competent bodies of our government and military to decide what to do. The best possible outcome for everybody (including the people of N.K.) is for them to not launch this missile. Failing that, the next best thing is for it to blow up on the pad.
    I will have to disagree. To simply assume they are going to launch an offensive nuclear tipped weapon at us or our allies and blow it up on the pad is guaranteeing a shooting war we cannot support at this time. Not in any way. Even if we had enough equipment, we don't have the bodies to throw at it. I say we let them launch, track it, and if it becomes evident it's an actual threat...then blow it up. And if that brings war, it brings war.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

    While they may not be insane in the psychiatric sense, they share collective delusions which make them very dangerous. They have the most pervasive thought control system in the entire world and everybody is exposed to it, especially members of the government and armed forces. I'm sure there are a few within the regime (such as within the propaganda dept.) who have a firmer grasp on reality, but they are the minority and are likely very evil people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    We can assume many things about their motives for wanting nuclear weapons. I'm not sure what you mean by their "world view" being "perverted"
    I mean that their collective delusions have perverted their view of reality, especially the outside world.

    but I think that from a military strategy point of view, the idea that an offensive nuclear capability makes you a power player and gives you some latitude to conduct offensive operations...well that's not perverted at all. It's reality. At least when confronting a non-nuclear nation. But then, the U.S. doesn't fit into that category.
    You're assuming that the DPRK has good intelligence and will act rationally. That's a big assumption for a regime as detached from reality as that of the DPRK. They've been acting irrationally since 1949.

    I don't know who ever suggested that, I know I certainly didn't. Nuclear weapons are a deterrent to would be invaders.
    They're also a license to kill. In order to defeat the DPRK in the event of an offensive, they would need to be invaded.

    However their value quickly dries up when you attempt to blackmail another nuclear armed nation like the U.S. The North Korean military is not retarded.
    Retarded? No. Delusional, yes.

    They are very well aware of their own capability versus that of their adversaries. The notion that they even remotely believe they would be able to invade the South with conventional forces and the U.S./ROK would stand down and let it happen because they have nukes isn't even reasonable. Nuclear weapons make your nation an unappealing target for invasion.
    Yep, S. Korea is going to "invade" N. Korea. Just like last time...

    On what grounds?
    Explained above...

    (truncated due to character limit) They have a large military.
    They have a large, ****ty military.

    I find this statement somewhat perplexing, and I have to ask...what do you know that the Pentagon does not? Our own government is far from positive about the full military capacity and capability of the DPRK. What we do know tells a slightly different story than what you are claiming.
    There's reason to be concerned in that we don't have enough troops on the peninsula at the moment and with our commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan we might not be able to provide the rapid reinforcements that would be necessary to defend S. Korea. However, there are American military assets and while I haven't read the treaty, I think NATO might be obligated to help the US in the event of an attack.

    (truncated) They're strong because they have nukes and rockets
    Whoopty ****. Welcome to the 1950's.

    They have their own indigenous frequency hopping radio communications equipment, a complex fiber optic communications network linking hundreds of forward deployed underground bunker facilities and military posts, they have developed a North Korean version of the T-90 main battle tank (albeit in few numbers), they maintain a robust chemical warfare capability (they have several facilities that have produced a wide variety of chemical agents which are deployed and stockpiled) and they have the worlds largest asymmetrical warfare program (it's fully twice the size of the U.S. capability). They can deploy over 100,000 highly trained and well equipped special operations troops. They have developed a very complex network of hardened underground installations and tunnels that can facilitate the movement of men, machines, munitions, and other supplies undetected.
    All of this for "defense" against the meager S. Korea. Yeah right...

    You seem to scoff at the idea that their equipment is "old" or "outdated" but 5,000 conventional artillery pieces deployed from hidden positions can wreak havoc, especially if our forward bases are suffering from disruptions caused by a large and decentralized covert warfare campaign being waged behind our lines. The Kalashnikov rifle to be old, but it's still a very effective killing machine, very reliable, and in the right hands will do the job. Send 600,000 highly motivated and loyal soldiers across the 38th, supported by 2,000 "old" tanks, under the cover of several thousand artillery pieces firing ...you are not going to just be shooting fish in a barrel.
    Look at their Air Force. It'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. Mig-23's vs Raptors? What little C3 they have would be gone in under a week. They would be blind and in disarray in a week.

    Unsophisticated? Compared to the U.S. sure. Weak? Compared to many nations of the world...hardly. Laser guided bombs and fast moving tanks will only get you so far in the rugged, mountainous terrain of the Korean Peninsula. The lesson here? Don't underestimate a man with a rifle and the will to die for his cause. I'd take a platoon of Marines and their small arms over an F-18 when it comes to securing a rugged mountain pass. Grunts secure and hold ground. You get enough of them into our territory and we start losing air bases, supply depots, and rail lines. Do you know what happens to an Army when that occurs? That scenario is one that has been lamented by U.S. commanders on the Korean Peninsula for decades. It's a very real threat. The North maintains a large numerical advantage to the South, 2-1 in ground combat forces and equipment. And that is what war on the Peninsula will amount to, men on the ground. The KPA is not the Iraqi Army.
    This is true, but when fighting a modern, mobile adversary you can't win by mass alone. If your commanders' C3 (and the commanders themselves, mind you) are destroyed your army becomes a helpless mass, unable to respond to changing situations. They'd get flanked, shanked, and cut into pieces.

    Who said anything about peacefully exploring space? I said they are most likely using this to study their rocket/missile production work, refine it, and improve it. No doubt this will be applied to their military applications.
    For sure. That's what this is all about. It has nothing to do with the satellite, supposing it is a satellite.

    Well sure there is a huge amount of risk. But when we have so little actual intelligence we have to rely on sound military logic and some degree of reason. So the problem here is that we don't really know if it's an actual threat right? I mean that's why we are having this particular discussion. We could easily assume that based upon their military profile and political ideology that this rocket is a threat...but to whom? To what? So we really have no choice but to let it launch and tracks it's trajectory.
    I've said nothing about their ideology. The allusion to Kim-Il Sung was to demonstrate how delusional North Korea is as a society. If you believe that Kim Il-Sung, who was born in the 1900's "created the world," what the hell else would you believe?

    They are liars, historically, internally and externally. They break promise after promise. They are state scam artists.


    I think if we had intelligence that it was a threat we would have already taken the "Cubam Missile Crisis" approach and exposed it to the world in an attempt to shut the launch down. Knowing it's a threat, but saying nothing, then pulling the trigger just before or just after the launch, and then revealing the nature of the threat, will do little for our case and most likely result in a shooting war. During the Cuban Missile Crisis our strategy was "reveal the threat before we shoot."
    Well, this situation is markedly different from that of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Ideally, the missile wont be fired. Therefore, it would be silly to reveal the intelligence and risk assets when the rocket might not be fired in the first place. Everyone's trying to prevent this launch. Hu said Beijing would be trying to convince them not to launch "up to the last minute."

    Well North Korea is already a nuclear power. We know this. They detonated a bomb, and we have no idea how many devices they actually have. There are no favorable conditions from which to fight North Korea right now.
    It's only going to get worse. The only test they've conducted at this point was a partial success. Their delivery technology is underdeveloped. Forstalling the inevitable is only going to lead to greater destruction.

    As you alluded to, our military is stretched far too thin right now, and the North knows this. We would be very hard pressed to reinforce our units there to any meaningful degree should the balloon go up. We do not have the military capacity at this moment to disarm North Korea. Their defensive capability is far too strong. We aren't talking about Iraq here. They not only have WMD's, they literally have thousands of weapons stockpiles and millions of service age men that can be mobilized in defense of the nation. Even with the full assistance of our allies we would not win if we invaded North Korea right now. It would be an NBC nightmare.
    I never said mount an offensive. I said if we need to shoot down the missile to avert the risk of catastrophe, I would definitely do it. If they declare war as a result, so be it.


    I will have to disagree. To simply assume they are going to launch an offensive nuclear tipped weapon at us or our allies and blow it up on the pad is guaranteeing a shooting war we cannot support at this time. Not in any way. Even if we had enough equipment, we don't have the bodies to throw at it. I say we let them launch, track it, and if it becomes evident it's an actual threat...then blow it up. And if that brings war, it brings war.
    Well, I said:

    It depends on what our intelligence community knows about the "object" mounted at the head of the missile. If they were 100% certain it's a satellite, I'd let it proceed and press for sanctions and accept S. Korea's bid into the Proliferation Security Initiative and start conducting exercises immediately.

    With anything less than extremely high confidence that it's a satellite, I'd shoot it down. N. Korea cannot be trusted; they are professional liars. They don't need a communications satellite and they haven't released the communications frequencies which by international protocol is done 2 years in advance. They've been starving their people in favor of massive military expenditures, which can only mean one thing: they plan on improving their economy through military conquest. They can now theoretically nuke the US, nuke Japan, and blitzkrieg into S. Korea. It's not worth the risk.
    I'd prefer action 1, but action 2 might be the best choice depending on the data we get from the intelligence community. Obviously the object should be tracked no matter what and shot down if it looks like it's going to pose a threat. I think the only difference between you and I is how much we're willing to risk. Letting them launch this thing at all is a huge risk in my mind.
    Last edited by BulletWounD; 04-04-09 at 03:01 AM.

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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    You keep bloviating though, and I'll keep laughing at you. You truly are the Barney Frank of DP.com.
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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    While they may not be insane in the psychiatric sense,
    Thank you.

    they share collective delusions which make them very dangerous.
    I can agree with this to a certain degree. The word delusions should probably be explained a bit in terms of what they are that translate into making them dangerous, but I understand where you are headed and I agree. North Korea is very dangerous.

    They have the most pervasive thought control system in the entire world and everybody is exposed to it, especially members of the government and armed forces. I'm sure there are a few within the regime (such as within the propaganda dept.) who have a firmer grasp on reality, but they are the minority and are likely very evil people.
    Agreed.

    I mean that their collective delusions have perverted their view of reality, especially the outside world.
    Okay.

    You're assuming that the DPRK has good intelligence and will act rationally. That's a big assumption for a regime as detached from reality as that of the DPRK. They've been acting irrationally since 1949.
    North Korea has an active foreign intelligence agency, the Research Department for External Intelligence (RDEI). They focus on the South, Japan, and the U.S. Good intelligence in this case would require no more information than is readily available to you and I on the internet. A reasonable group of intelligence analysts could easily make the determination that possession of a handful of nuclear weapons would never insure their ability to operate offensively with impunity where the U.S. is concerned. I don't believe that the North thinks these weapons will guarantee them anything other than a seat at the big boy table and further insurance against invasion. They do believe, or at least they say they believe, the U.S. is pushing them towards conflict. This is one of those delusions I think we both agree on, as the North is pushing the conflict, not the U.S. Of course if we take offensive action and destroy this rocket on the pad then the shoe is on our foot.

    They're also a license to kill.
    Only if you are threatening to use them in support of an offensive operation and to gain your enemy's capitulation. That is not the case here, at least for now, nor has it been the case since we did it in World War II. Regardless nobody likes that Pyongyang now has nuclear weapons. Thanks China.

    In order to defeat the DPRK in the event of an offensive, they would need to be invaded.
    When you say defeat are you meaning "regime change" or just military defeat? There is a big difference and your statement only really applies to one of those situations.

    Retarded? No. Delusional, yes.
    The extent of the delusion is what is in question here.

    Yep, S. Korea is going to "invade" N. Korea. Just like last time...
    They are a military first nation, their mindset is centered around survival through military power. And we did invade them last time and nearly destroyed them. One look at this map of our advance North will verify this. We went all the way to Kimchaek in the east and got close to the Yalu River in the West. That push was so successful that it triggered the Chinese intervention. If we are going to get into their heads about national defense concerns, let's really get into their heads. They were invaded and occupied by Japan and later were invaded by way of the U.S. counterattack during the Korean War. They have a legitimate basis for a strong national defense strategy even if we don't like them.

    Explained above...
    That didn't explain your disagreement over their military competency.
    They have a large, ****ty military.
    Well, the facts disagree with you when it comes to one of those descriptors.

    There's reason to be concerned in that we don't have enough troops on the peninsula at the moment and with our commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan we might not be able to provide the rapid reinforcements that would be necessary to defend S. Korea. However, there are American military assets and while I haven't read the treaty, I think NATO might be obligated to help the US in the event of an attack.
    I think the North would be suffer horrendous losses if they attempted an invasion of the South, however I do think they could very easily roll us back off the 38th. We would be in for the fight our life to hold them off. And NATO is not obligated to help in response to any conflict involving the U.S. in South Korea. The ROK is a Major Non-Nato Ally (MNNA). There is no NATO obligation to defend them or help us in their defense.

    Whoopty ****. Welcome to the 1950's.
    What?

    All of this for "defense" against the meager S. Korea. Yeah right...
    Who said this was for "defense against the meager south?" I may not be interpreting the flavor of your posts here correctly, but it seems you are inferring that I'm claiming the North's buildup is somehow only defensive in nature.

    Do you know very much about the military profile of the DRPK? The KPA maintains an offensive orientation based around the doctrine of reunification by force. The DPRK militia has the primary role of defense of the homeland. The point of my post which you seem to just dismiss with little desire to actually debate, is that it counters this notion of yours that they are one of the worlds weakest and most unsophisticated armies. This is hardly the case.

    Look at their Air Force. It'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. Mig-23's vs Raptors? What little C3 they have would be gone in under a week. They would be blind and in disarray in a week.
    You didn't see me say anything about their air force. Few nations on this earth could compete with even limited U.S. airpower. But airpower alone does not win wars, airpower is primarily a support function for ground operations or an interdiction tool. To win a war you must take and hold ground. Planes cannot do that.

    This is true, but when fighting a modern, mobile adversary you can't win by mass alone.
    Of course not, you seem to think that KPA soldiers are weak and very poorly trained. This is not the case at all. They are very well trained, very motivated, and armed to the teeth.

    If your commanders' C3 (and the commanders themselves, mind you) are destroyed your army becomes a helpless mass, unable to respond to changing situations. They'd get flanked, shanked, and cut into pieces.
    You seem to think that this will be an easy task to accomplish. Why do you think this? Is it because we were able to accomplish this in the deserts of Iraq, against an already depleted, somewhat disloyal, and definitely unmotivated military force?

    Many historians have warned that the U.S. military, while very good at what it does, should not in any way gauge future conflicts against the relative ease of victory they experienced in the two war against Iraq. The Korean peninsula is entirely different terrain than Iraq and the KPA is an entirely different monster that the Iraqi Army.

    For sure. That's what this is all about. It has nothing to do with the satellite, supposing it is a satellite.
    The rocket is the catalyst. It's a test. And I was thinking about this last night. This could very well be an attempt to suck us in to a shooting war deliberately because the North knows we are in a state of vulnerability with regard to our defensive commitments. We could not effectively support another major military conflict right now. Blowing this thing up on the launch pad would give the DPRK all the justification they think they need to come South. They've mobilized their forces and reinforced them on the 38th already in response to US/ROK joint military exercises, the stage is set.

    I've said nothing about their ideology. The allusion to Kim-Il Sung was to demonstrate how delusional North Korea is as a society. If you believe that Kim Il-Sung, who was born in the 1900's "created the world," what the hell else would you believe?
    Well you didn't have to say anything about their political ideology, it's an obvious factor here. There is a difference between peasants raised under the Juche ideology and professional military leaders who are educated. Are they an unstable military threat? Certainly. Are they a politically volatile government centered around a cult of personality? Absolutely. Does this mean they are militarily incompetent strategists? Not at all.

    They are liars, historically, internally and externally. They break promise after promise. They are state scam artists.
    Agreed.
    Well, this situation is markedly different from that of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Ideally, the missile wont be fired.
    I agree.

    Therefore, it would be silly to reveal the intelligence and risk assets when the rocket might not be fired in the first place. Everyone's trying to prevent this launch. Hu said Beijing would be trying to convince them not to launch "up to the last minute."
    Not silly at all. The DPRK has mobilized it's military and openly stated if we destroy the rocket it means war. We can reasonably assume they mean to make good on their threat. The goal is to use every means necessary to avoid war, not avoid the rocket launch. If we strike first and trigger a ground war, China will not back the U.S. They will support North Korea and immediately begin squeezing us. China will not let North Korea fall to U.S. forces, nor will they simply allow us to devastate their infrastructure. Therefore you employ everything you can to scrap this launch. If you have evidence it's not a satellite, you expose them. If you have evidence it's a weapon, you expose them. You put the pressure on the rest of the world to lobby Pyongyang to stand down. If you deliberately withhold information that is relevant to averting war and war results, you are guilty.

    To be continued....
    *insert profound statement here*

  7. #67
    Every day I'm hustlin'..
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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

    It's only going to get worse. The only test they've conducted at this point was a partial success. Their delivery technology is underdeveloped. Forstalling the inevitable is only going to lead to greater destruction.
    Partial success? By whose standards? The thing worked. It was a success. They built and detonated a nuclear weapon. The only question was their ability to control the yield. And if we are convinced their delivery technology is so underdeveloped why are you advocating destroying the rocket on the pad? What threat can you articulate that this rocket actually poses if you are convinced their delivery technology is so behind the times?

    Look, it will definitely only get worse with them. But pushing them to war right now is not going to accomplish anything. We can't fight that war effectively at this time. It would make the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan seem like walks in the park. Certainly the best route is to somehow convince them to not launch the rocket. But failing that, the worse thing we can do is blow it up on the pad. War is assured at that point. At least according to the North.


    I never said mount an offensive. I said if we need to shoot down the missile to avert the risk of catastrophe, I would definitely do it. If they declare war as a result, so be it.
    What you said was:
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWound
    How many lives can be saved by disarming them now?
    That would require an offensive. How else are we going to disarm them? Shooting down that rocket will not disarm them. It will only call their bluff about going to war with the US and ROK.
    I'd prefer action 1, but action 2 might be the best choice depending on the data we get from the intelligence community. Obviously the object should be tracked no matter what and shot down if it looks like it's going to pose a threat. I think the only difference between you and I is how much we're willing to risk. Letting them launch this thing at all is a huge risk in my mind.
    I see no real risk in them launching this because it serves no logical purpose in terms of an offensive act. It's a test of our resolve and a test of just how far they can go before the world will join the U.S. or abandon them. They are feeling the edges and at the same time evaluating their rocket building technology. There is no nuclear warhead on this rocket.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket


    North Korea 'has launched rocket

    North Korea appears to have launched a rocket, reports from Japan and South Korea say.
    It came a day after Pyongyang said that its preparations for the launch of a communications satellite were complete.
    BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | North Korea 'has launched rocket'

    Everybody hold your breath.

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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    For the slap on the wrist they will get? I highly doubt North Korea will become anymore alienated, trade or economic wise, then it already is.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
    - Warren Buffett

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    Re: Obama issues warning as North Korea readies rocket

    North Korea said to launch rocket - Los Angeles Times

    North Korea said to launch rocket

    Ending several days of high alert in East Asia, the rocket reportedly crosses Japanese air space before landing in the Pacific. Japan had threatened to shoot it down.

    By John M. Glionna

    8:22 PM PDT, April 4, 2009

    Reporting from Seoul North Korea launched what was believed to be a multi-stage rocket on Sunday, ending weeks of speculation about the regime's efforts to expand its ability to deliver nuclear weapons.

    The North Korean news agency announced that a rocket was launched about 11:30 a.m. The U.S. State Department, the South Korean president's office and Japanese media reports confirmed the launch.

    The rocket reportedly crossed Japanese air space before plunging into the Pacific Ocean, according to press reports from Japan. Japanese officials apparently did not attempt to shoot down the rocket, as they had threatened to do.

    North Korea had said it planned to put a communications satellite into space. But many analysts predicted that the launch would actually be a test of the regime's ability to use the three-stage Taepodong 2 to deliver a warhead.

    South Korea's Yonhap news agency quoted government officials in Seoul as saying that the rocket carried a satellite. That report was not immediately confirmed.
    *YAWN*

    OBL 11/24/02

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