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Thread: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    So how much of other people's money should Africans use per year to spend their way to prosperity?

    What dollar amount per year are we obligated to gift them so that they can spend their way to prosperity?
    It depends on the specific country and the specific problems they face. But many of the problems are really not that expensive to fix. For example, distributing mosquito bed nets and spraying insecticide in people's houses costs about $10 per person per year...and would not be necessary after five years, because malaria would be virtually eliminated from the area. Mass distribution of condoms would require about $25 per person per year...and would be necessary until the birth rate declined from stratospheric levels, which can take 20-25 years (or perhaps a bit longer in the countries where condoms would also be necessary as an HIV prevention technique).

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    For how many years are we obligated to gift them this money? How long until they can spend their way into prosperity?
    Again, it depends on the country. Jeffrey Sachs (a well-known economist who specializes in these issues) has made a fairly compelling argument that once nations reach $6,000 GDP per capita, they no longer require outside assistance to continue growing their economies. And even before they reach that point, they'll require significantly less assistance as they approach that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    (While you're at it, perhaps you can also explain why we are obligated to make this gift, and to help them spend their way to prosperity.)
    As soon as this goes from an economics debate to a not-my-problem debate, that's when I stop participating.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-05-09 at 04:44 PM.
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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    So how much of other people's money should Africans use per year to spend their way to prosperity?
    Well, in honesty, Africans might very well have been better off WITHOUT interference from the IMF/World Bank (without mention of the other forces that have helped plunder the riches of Africa for centuries.

    Do I have a concrete solution that would help out more? No, I don't. But, it IS misleading AT THE LEAST to throw out a 'big number' in the name of helping Africa to be raised up to the level of the rest of the world (so to speak)

    Then you could look at what that money IS being spent on : I remember from early on in Obama's presidency, he did send money to fund abortions in africa. So, I'd have to ask, HOW MUCH money would have to be spent in africa before it gets to the point that it's offering some REAL benefits?

    What dollar amount per year are we obligated to gift them so that they can spend their way to prosperity?
    We are not obligated, the question really is a matter of : DO we want to live in a world with a 'first world' and a 'third world' or would we rather give up a small portion of the over-abundance we have and share it with the rest of the world so that we might all enjoy this planet from a position where noone suffers needlessly.

    Is that our 'obligation'... no, but we are in the best position to help. Now, I just wish that this 'help' wasn't the kind that is 'morally good, but politicially useless (or worse)'

    For how many years are we obligated to gift them this money? How long until they can spend their way into prosperity?
    Again, it would not need to be a dollar amount if done right... Consider : If we gave water purification to each town, farm equipment so that the people can make themselves an abundance of food, and the education to maintain these things.... That might represent perhaps a billion dollars that could essentially END the worst of the problems that we're seeing in africa. But even this isn't a total and proper solution since it doesn't address all of the real issues.

    For your second, a better question might be : How much are we willing to spend to end human suffering?? (I mean that in a humanitarian way, since it would probably be alot more cost efficient to merely bomb them into oblivian)

    (While you're at it, perhaps you can also explain why we are obligated to make this gift, and to help them spend their way to prosperity.)
    It's not so much of an 'obligation' but depending on the intention, in this case, creating a 'new world order' then you need to at least make it seem like you're trying to raise the level of existance of all people equally.... Unfortunately, the architects of the 'new world order' are viruently racist against africa, the take pride in the works of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler FAR more than they praise the achievements of democracy, and have about as much interest in helping to end the suffering of africans as hitler was interested in protecting Jews by putting them in camps.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Again, it would not need to be a dollar amount if done right... Consider : If we gave water purification to each town, farm equipment so that the people can make themselves an abundance of food, and the education to maintain these things.... That might represent perhaps a billion dollars that could essentially END the worst of the problems that we're seeing in africa. But even this isn't a total and proper solution since it doesn't address all of the real issues.
    I completely agree with this. I think that too many people just think of foreign aid as a welfare check to Africans. If it's spent on things that actually help eliminate these problems (such as the one you mentioned), then it will help African economies grow on their own.
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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I completely agree with this. I think that too many people just think of foreign aid as a welfare check to Africans. If it's spent on things that actually help eliminate these problems (such as the one you mentioned), then it will help African economies grow on their own.
    How has it been anything but that?

    If, as has been your argument, that third world nations are "shut out" of world trade because the state of their economies leaves them with nothing to trade, how can it ever be anything but that?

    If your argument were to shift towards encouraging first world enterprise to invest and explore opportunities in third world nations, I certainly would find such an argument more compelling.

    To build a nation, seek foreign investment, not foreign aid.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Spreading the wealth is essential to help the poorest nations escape poverty. Once they've built their economy up to a certain point, they will no longer require outside economic aid.
    Welfare doesn't work on the national level so why exactly would it work on the supra-national level?

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Welfare doesn't work on the national level so why exactly would it work on the supra-national level?
    Not only that... it's like the story of the guy trying to catch a group of wild pigs, so each day he'd leave a small amount of food for them, After a week he'd build up the posts of a fence, and each week of giving these wild pigs food he'd add another wall to the fence. Finally, he built a door to close it off, and by the end of the second month all he had to do was walk up and close the gate cause the pigs were tame by that point.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    How has it been anything but that?

    If, as has been your argument, that third world nations are "shut out" of world trade because the state of their economies leaves them with nothing to trade, how can it ever be anything but that?
    Because of the REASONS they don't have anything to trade. Desertification, unsustainable water consumption and lack of clean water, endemic malaria, and constant population growth aren't immutable facts of nature that forever govern Africa. Those problems can be fixed with some outside assistance...just as they were in many parts of Asia. Fixing these problems, in turn, will stimulate the economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    If your argument were to shift towards encouraging first world enterprise to invest and explore opportunities in third world nations, I certainly would find such an argument more compelling.

    To build a nation, seek foreign investment, not foreign aid.
    They need both. Foreign aid - when spent on things that actually develop the economy - will encourage more foreign investment as the economy grows.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-05-09 at 06:55 PM.
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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Welfare doesn't work on the national level so why exactly would it work on the supra-national level?
    Because we aren't talking about giving people money just because they don't have jobs. We're talking about investing in water systems, malaria prevention, condom distribution, forest preservation, primary education, and other things that will encourage African economies to grow.
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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Because we aren't talking about giving people money just because they don't have jobs. We're talking about investing in water systems, malaria prevention, condom distribution, forest preservation, primary education, and other things that will encourage African economies to grow.
    If we are talking investment, what return will there be on such investment?

    If we are talking investment, over what period will the investment be returned to the investors?

    If we are talking investment, what interest will the investors receive as consideration for their investment?

    If there is neither return nor interest, it is not investment.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    If we are talking investment, what return will there be on such investment?
    The return on anti-malaria treatments, for example, will be a workforce that is not afflicted with malaria and is more capable of trading with the rest of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    If we are talking investment, over what period will the investment be returned to the investors?
    Depends on which problem we're looking at. Anti-malaria treatments will produce a healthier work force in a matter of months. Nitrate fertilizers and better irrigation will pay dividends within a single harvest season. Other programs, such as condom distribution and primary education, will take longer to see a return.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    If we are talking investment, what interest will the investors receive as consideration for their investment?
    The investors (in this case, foreign governments) will receive increased trade from more reliable trading partners in Africa.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-05-09 at 09:46 PM.
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