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Thread: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    Yeah someone please tell me what I or my wife have ever done to anyone in those countries. If you can tell me how I personaly screwed them over than I will be happy to give to them. If not I would pefer to keep my money for myself thank you very much.
    This isnt so much about what anyones "done" to anyone else as much as its about a finanical relationship in which one end gets the raw end of the deal. Whilst im sure you and your wife are lovely the machine your are using to read this is likely to have been made using material from all over the world. Those involved in producing/mining these materials will probably have been paid badly and little of the money made from the sale of the computer will have gone to the country that these raw materials came from.

    This is something i noticed alot when I was teaching in Peru. The country has a huge mining industry but many people cant afford to send their kids to school as the uniforms, books etc. are outside their price range. I was working for a chairity that helped those who had fallen out of the net of the mainstream schooling system to get back into it but which could barely afford books. IE a country that produces some materials that are of increasing value in the light of the economic crisis cant afford to educate its children

    Assuming you drink tea or eat chocolate or fruit its also worth thinking about were these come from. Whilst you and I havent "done" anything we are still on the better end of a raw deal. No man is an island as the saying goes.

    However its also worth bearing in mind that this isnt necessarily a zero sum game. If we could help third world countries develop their agriculture through things like irrigation [or dare i say it: GM crops] then its easy to see how we could benefit in light of the ever rising price of food.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Countries need to reach a certain base level of development before they can really develop their economies on their own.
    In other words, they don't need to be countries.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They practice unsustainable development and have a sickly/uneducated work force. They can never hope to develop their economy as long as those problems remain. Foreign aid can go a long way to preventing these problems.
    Key words: "They practice".

    If they want sustainable development, let them practice sustainable development. If they want an educated work force, let them build schools and have the literate teach the illiterate.

    None of the problems you describe require foreign aid to remedy--and the glittering non-success of foreign aid efforts to date suggests that foreign aid merely compounds these problems.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    In other words, they don't need to be countries.
    There is a good argument that many African countries don't need to be countries, as the borders were drawn by the French, Belgian, and English colonialists without regard to the social or historical condition of the people living there.

    However, that doesn't change the fact that whether or not those countries remain countries, there will still be people living there and they still will live in undeveloped economies that require foreign assistance to become productive.
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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    If they want sustainable development, let them practice sustainable development.
    Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think their governments can just decide one day that they're going to start practicing sustainable development, and everyone will live happily ever after?

    Did you stop to consider WHY unsustainable development occurs in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    If they want an educated work force, let them build schools and have the literate teach the illiterate.
    With what money?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    None of the problems you describe require foreign aid to remedy--and the glittering non-success of foreign aid efforts to date suggests that foreign aid merely compounds these problems.
    Foreign aid has been an immense success everywhere it's been committed. The Marshall Plan in Western Europe. Macarthur's occupation of Japan. Massive influxes of development assistance to South Korea, Taiwan, and Israel. The British colonization (instead of merely the colonialization) of the Anglosphere. French and Dutch investments in Southeast Asia. American and British investments in China and India. And now Chinese investments in certain parts of Africa.

    You can't judge foreign assistance in Africa to be a failure based on the pitiful amounts of assistance provided thus far. That would be like spending five minutes trying to teach a kid to read, before concluding that education was hopeless and that all children are forever doomed to illiteracy.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-04-09 at 08:21 PM.
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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Do you really think it's that simple? Do you think their governments can just decide one day that they're going to start practicing sustainable development, and everyone will live happily ever after?

    Did you stop to consider WHY unsustainable development occurs in the first place?
    Corrupt government on the one hand failing to lead a disunited people on the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    With what money?
    Men without money but still possessing hammer, saw, and a bit of lumber can build schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Foreign aid has been an immense success everywhere it's been committed. The Marshall Plan in Western Europe. Macarthur's occupation of Japan.
    Those were efforts to rebuilt the shattered infrastructures of otherwise functioning economies and societies, after the particular cataclysm of WWII. They have more in common with Iraq than with Africa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You can't judge foreign assistance in Africa to be a failure based on the pitiful amounts of assistance provided thus far. That would be like spending five minutes trying to teach a kid to read, before concluding that education was hopeless and that all children are forever doomed to illiteracy.
    Pitiful? $600 Billion over 45 years hardly qualifies as pitiful. In dollars donated and the time devoted, foreign aid to Africa has been considerable.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Corrupt government on the one hand failing to lead a disunited people on the other.
    That's close...but even among African governments/societies that generally behave themselves, there is a lot of unsustainable development and environmental degradation.

    Poverty causes these problems (e.g. people slashing-and-burning forests in a desperate attempt to clear enough farmland to not starve). And these problems, in turn, cause even more poverty (e.g. a lack of timber to sell and a lack of farmland due to overuse).

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    Men without money but still possessing hammer, saw, and a bit of lumber can build schools.
    If it was that simple, one would think that Western governments would've adopted that education policy for themselves by now. That's not the way an economy works. You never get something for nothing; building schools and hiring teachers cost money.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    Those were efforts to rebuilt the shattered infrastructures of otherwise functioning economies and societies, after the particular cataclysm of WWII. They have more in common with Iraq than with Africa.
    Depends how you define functioning economies I guess. Korea was as poor as some parts of Africa prior to US developmental assistance. It succeeded largely because of a huge influx of cash that Africa never received. Israel is another good example; prior to independence, Israel was nearly as poor as most of its neighbors. But Israel received development assistance (more than every African nation combined), which has helped make Israel an economic powerhouse in the region.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    Pitiful? $600 Billion over 45 years hardly qualifies as pitiful. In dollars donated and the time devoted, foreign aid to Africa has been considerable.
    $600 billion over 45 years is only $13 billion annually. Africa has a population of 922 million. This works out to about $14 per African per year.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-05-09 at 04:15 AM.
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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's close...but even among African governments/societies that generally behave themselves, there is a lot of unsustainable development and environmental degradation.
    Not to mention that almost half the population is infected with AIDS...

    Poverty causes these problems (e.g. people slashing-and-burning forests in a desperate attempt to clear enough farmland to not starve). And these problems, in turn, cause even more poverty (e.g. a lack of timber to sell and a lack of farmland due to overuse).
    I've heard that education also plays into this, since a majority of the population lacks the agricultural knowledge to make sustainable crops.... This seems possible, but I'm uncertain.

    If it was that simple, one would think that Western governments would've adopted that education policy for themselves by now. That's not the way an economy works. You never get something for nothing; building schools and hiring teachers cost money.
    You're right though, it's not a simple problem (or even set of problems) working against the countries of Africa.

    Depends how you define functioning economies I guess. Korea was as poor as some parts of Africa prior to US developmental assistance. It succeeded largely because of a huge influx of cash that Africa never received. Israel is another good example; prior to independence, Israel was nearly as poor as most of its neighbors. But Israel received development assistance (more than every African nation combined), which has helped make Israel an economic powerhouse in the region.
    That's why I come from the perspective that the elites that are bringing about the 'new world order' (mentioned earlier in this thread) has no real interest in allowing Africa to become an industrialized nation.... much of this will come through the 'environmental / anti-co2' movement because Africa will have to develop itself first with 'cheaper' co2 producing machinery to create what it needs to develop more energy efficient techniques. Or an influx of cash (with no debt strings) that could create an energy efficient economy.... and well, 15$ per african per year.... I don't think that'll do much of anything.

    $600 billion over 45 years is only $13 billion annually. Africa has a population of 922 million. This works out to about $14 per African per year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    However its also worth bearing in mind that this isnt necessarily a zero sum game. If we could help third world countries develop their agriculture through things like irrigation [or dare i say it: GM crops] then its easy to see how we could benefit in light of the ever rising price of food.
    Unfortunately, GM crops are a part of the problem for the developping world... it creates a financial depends on Monsanto (or similar GM company) whose seeds of the crop will not sprout again (Terminator seeds).... Take the example of some north american farmers, some farmers never once had a GM crop, and then lawyers from monsanto went to them and tested their wheat and determined that they had a 'monanto' gene, and successfully sued these farmers for stealing their product. That is the practical end purpose of GM foods, it's about the CONTROL of food, and not the human benefits that they have the potential for.

    Example, I might not be opposed to gene modification that would triple the yealds with the same nutritional values... but the GM products are only BARELY tested for their safe consumption by people, and I believe that ANY modification should undergo rigourous testing before being added to the food supply... who knows what could happen.

    Let's use an extreme example : A type of wheat is modified for whatever reason, but when people eat it, the enzymes are so incompatible with humans that it creates cancers in about 80% of the people that eat it. Now, this product gets in the wild, and the only way to determine if the gene is in the product is with a DNA test.... You'd have to label that product as 'toxic' just to be safe.

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    $600 billion over 45 years is only $13 billion annually. Africa has a population of 922 million. This works out to about $14 per African per year.
    So how much of other people's money should Africans use per year to spend their way to prosperity?

    What dollar amount per year are we obligated to gift them so that they can spend their way to prosperity?

    For how many years are we obligated to gift them this money? How long until they can spend their way into prosperity?

    (While you're at it, perhaps you can also explain why we are obligated to make this gift, and to help them spend their way to prosperity.)

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    Re: G-20 to give $1 trillion to IMF, World Bank

    The purpose of the US goverment is to take care of the people in this country not to give our money to others exspecialy to others who refuse to try to help themselves. As mean as it sounds this world is not a fair place. I belive charity is a great thing but forceing others to give charity is stealing. trying to make the world a more fair place by stealing from others is not a move in the right direction

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