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AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

I've been arguing that what Stalworth did is much, much worse than what Vick did, but there is no concerted uproar and calls for his head as there were for Vick.

I find that tremendously distrubing.

Edit: And you had said "The other is just a stupid mistake" A DUI killing is not "just a stupid mistake". It's a criminal mistake.

There's plenty of cases of animal abuse that gets nary a headline. Even dog abuses. I think Zyphlin hit it on the head with a couple of his points, mainly that Vick is more famous, and that what he did to those dogs was done in a sober and deliberate manner.
 
There's plenty of cases of animal abuse that gets nary a headline. Even dog abuses. I think Zyphlin hit it on the head with a couple of his points, mainly that Vick is more famous, and that what he did to those dogs was done in a sober and deliberate manner.

So? What people do to mice is done in a sober and deliberate manner, and just as bad. Why is it a crime with dogs and nothing with mice?
 
I am in agreement with Tucker.

It is worse to accidentally kill a person, while engaging in a dangerous activity, than its is to kill dogs on purpose.
 
So? What people do to mice is done in a sober and deliberate manner, and just as bad. Why is it a crime with dogs and nothing with mice?

Jeepers, are you the new PETA spokesperson? :2razz: :lol:

While mice can be pets, people also feed them live to their pet snakes. Also, wild ones can be a nuissance. Not sure where the laws draw the line, but you can expect more sympathy for dogs and cats.

On a personal level, I would never trap a mouse. I feel enough guilt squishing a spider.
 
I am in agreement with Tucker.

It is worse to accidentally kill a person, while engaging in a dangerous activity, than its is to kill dogs on purpose.

Why does there have to be a hierarchy of what is the worse offense?:confused:
 
Jeepers, are you the new PETA spokesperson? :2razz: :lol:

Actually, I'm the spokesman for their opposite: PEKA... People for the Entertaining Killing of Animals.

While mice can be pets, people also feed them live to their pet snakes. Also, wild ones can be a nuissance. Not sure where the laws draw the line, but you can expect more sympathy for dogs and cats.

Thank you. Basically you are saying that there are levels of animals. Some we like, some we don't. Some we give a **** about, others are hamburgers and chops.

The issue here, IMO, is that the levels at which we place these various animals, should always, invariably, have Humans at the apex and a whole ****load of distance between those humans and the next highest animal/s.
 
Why does there have to be a hierarchy of what is the worse offense?:confused:

For the very same reasons there is a hierarchy that separates dogs and mice. One is more deserving of us caring.

Humans are ALWAYS more deserving than any and all animals.
 
For the very same reasons there is a hierarchy that separates dogs and mice. One is more deserving of us caring.

Humans are ALWAYS more deserving than any and all animals.

Humans get killed often enough by other people in an accidental fashion:
1) Man is cleaning his gun and accidentally shoots and kills his kid.
2) A soldier accidentally shoots one of his in friendly fire.
3) Father forgets his kid in his car, and he/she dies from heat.
4) Person get drunk out of his gourd and mows down a pedestrian.

On a hierarchy scale of murder, are the above "better" than what Ted Bundy did? I'm sure you'll agree. But in all cases, innocent people died.

Yeah, you're right... mice are lower on the totem pole than dogs. If Vick was running a mice fighting ring, probably only PETA would care.

But dogs are up there.

Add the fact that it was intentional, and that Vick was famous, and you have a top headline news report.

I have little doubt that this story will generate enough news, just like the Ray Lewis story did.
 
I don't disagree, but I think more along the lines of treating every being with the dignity that they deserve.

The rest of nature doesn't think that way, why should we?
 
The rest of nature doesn't think that way, why should we?

Not exactly sure what you're referring to.

If it's along the lines of an antelope being ravaged by a pack of lions, I'd say the death was fast. Don't they suffocate their prey first? And nothing, I mean nothing, goes to waste. Wild animals don't kill for fun and kicks as far as I know.
 
Not exactly sure what you're referring to.

If it's along the lines of an antelope being ravaged by a pack of lions, I'd say the death was fast. Don't they suffocate their prey first? And nothing, I mean nothing, goes to waste. Wild animals don't kill for fun and kicks as far as I know.

Dolphins have been known to. Plus a pack of lions will stalk and kill prey much larger than them, that basically requires they bleed the animal to death as well. Not all kills are so merciful.

I'm just saying, nature is cruel and if our ancestors would have been dumb enough to play the dignity game, we'd be some other creatures meals rather than vice versa. You think a tiger in the wild gives a crap about our dignity?
 
What the **** are you on about? When did I ever say he should be charged with premeditated murder?

I say he willingly committed a crime. And he did. He drove drunk. Did everyone forget that DUI is a ****ing crime?

While he was in the ACT of committing that WILLFUL crime, he killed someone. Is it your contention that he did not willfully drive drunk?

That would be the ridiculous comment, not mine.

Alright, my bad. I misinterpreted what you were saying. When you were saying it was an intentional, conscientious choice I thought you were arguing for premeditation and intent to kill or harm; the defining characteristics of murder. I think people can definitely make the conscientious to drink and drive, but I don't think that translates into murder or wishing to harm people and I don't think in cases of DUI people should be brought up on anything more than negligent homicide.

But I think maybe we just said the same things there, so it's all good. Sorry about that.


On a side note (this is not related to any one post or poster), PETA is a scam and should be put down.
 
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Humans are ALWAYS more deserving than any and all animals.

Not for me. If some human (I use the term loosely) decides he/she want's to kill my cat and I catch him in the process he is dead, no regrets.

Just because you are human does not mean you are more deserving of life to me. Maybe in court it will, but in real life, that person would be dead.
 
Not for me. If some human (I use the term loosely) decides he/she want's to kill my cat and I catch him in the process he is dead, no regrets.

Just because you are human does not mean you are more deserving of life to me. Maybe in court it will, but in real life, that person would be dead.

Does that mean you would kill me if I ate at a Chinese restaurant? :mrgreen:
 
Does that mean you would kill me if I ate at a Chinese restaurant? :mrgreen:

Nah I wouldn't kill you, I would kill the mother****** that killed my cat to make your meal.

More than likely if I found out and knew you ate my cat I would find a way to f**k up your fortune cookie :mrgreen:
 
Here's the thing, Mike Vick could've intentionally killed a million dogs. He could've butt-raped an Emu, or caused the extinction of the Polar Bear for all I care and it wouldn't be nearly as bad as what happened here.

They are ANIMALS. Intentionally killing them is, well, it's basically HUNTING. the only reason we treat Vick like a criminal in this case is because we have an irrational love for dogs.

Should we ban mousetraps, or even better, prosecute people for setting them? Well it is the premeditated TORTURE of another creature, isn't it? Why is it OK to snap the spine of a mouse, but not drown a dog?

I hate to say this but your comparison is like saying that people who are in battle in the military are "Murderers" because they kill people, and Murderer's kill people, so those things are exactly the same thing.

It isn't.

There is a cultural aspect to it. From birth, almost any person within this country is going to understand there is a difference between a domesticated animal and a vermin, which is what a mouse is.

The wanton torture and killing of said animals, not out of any kind of necessity but out of sport and greed, is far different than the killing of something considered a vermin for the sake of health. Much like killing someone upon the battle field is different than breaking into someones home and shooting them dead because you want their stereo.

This isn't excusing what Stallworth did, but I think you're attempting to devalue what Mike Vick did to try and prop up Stallworths, which actually seems to devalue your case against Stallworth.
 
Here's the thing, Mike Vick could've intentionally killed a million dogs. He could've butt-raped an Emu, or caused the extinction of the Polar Bear for all I care and it wouldn't be nearly as bad as what happened here.

They are ANIMALS. Intentionally killing them is, well, it's basically HUNTING. the only reason we treat Vick like a criminal in this case is because we have an irrational love for dogs.

Should we ban mousetraps, or even better, prosecute people for setting them? Well it is the premeditated TORTURE of another creature, isn't it? Why is it OK to snap the spine of a mouse, but not drown a dog?

I hate to say this but your comparison is like saying that people who are in battle in the military are "Murderers" because they kill people, and Murderer's kill people, so those things are exactly the same thing.

It isn't.

There is a societal aspect to it. From birth, almost any person within this country is going to understand there is a difference between a domesticated animal and a vermin, which is what a mouse is.

The wanton torture and killing of said animals, not out of any kind of necessity but out of sport and greed, is far different than the killing of something considered a vermin for the sake of health. Much like killing someone upon the battle field is different than breaking into someones home and shooting them dead because you want their stereo.

This isn't excusing what Stallworth did, but I think you're attempting to devalue what Mike Vick did to try and prop up Stallworths, which actually seems to devalue your case against Stallworth.
 
Dolphins have been known to. Plus a pack of lions will stalk and kill prey much larger than them, that basically requires they bleed the animal to death as well. Not all kills are so merciful.

I'm just saying, nature is cruel and if our ancestors would have been dumb enough to play the dignity game, we'd be some other creatures meals rather than vice versa. You think a tiger in the wild gives a crap about our dignity?

I get your point to a certain extent. Thing is, animals are instinctual, while humans have the ability to think things through. This is why we are at the top of the chain of course.

I have nothing against killing animals for sustenance. But rearing and killing should be done proper, with dignity, and not be wasteful.
 
I've been arguing that what Stalworth did is much, much worse than what Vick did, but there is no concerted uproar and calls for his head as there were for Vick.

I find that tremendously distrubing.

Edit: And you had said "The other is just a stupid mistake" A DUI killing is not "just a stupid mistake". It's a thought-out criminal mistake.

Here's a question for you, Tucker. If Tiger Woods killed a pedestrian with his car while half in the bag, do you think it would get the same level of attention as Stallworth?
 
Not exactly sure what you're referring to.

If it's along the lines of an antelope being ravaged by a pack of lions, I'd say the death was fast. Don't they suffocate their prey first? And nothing, I mean nothing, goes to waste. Wild animals don't kill for fun and kicks as far as I know.


Chimpanzees murder each other all the time. Tons of animals kill for fun. Certain wasps actually create zombies that are tortured to death. Killer whales torture seals before they eat them by tossing them in the air and smacking them with their tails.

Nature is far more brutal than you think.

Alright, my bad. I misinterpreted what you were saying. When you were saying it was an intentional, conscientious choice I thought you were arguing for premeditation and intent to kill or harm; the defining characteristics of murder. I think people can definitely make the conscientious to drink and drive, but I don't think that translates into murder or wishing to harm people and I don't think in cases of DUI people should be brought up on anything more than negligent homicide.

But I think maybe we just said the same things there, so it's all good. Sorry about that.


On a side note (this is not related to any one post or poster), PETA is a scam and should be put down.

Thanks. We cool.

Here's a question for you, Tucker. If Tiger Woods killed a pedestrian with his car while half in the bag, do you think it would get the same level of attention as Stallworth?

I'm not comparing the attention as much as the outrage. If Tiger killed a dude in a DUI it would surely get attention, but not as much as Vick did, and nowhere near as much outrage.
 
I hate to say this but your comparison is like saying that people who are in battle in the military are "Murderers" because they kill people, and Murderer's kill people, so those things are exactly the same thing.

It isn't.

There is a societal aspect to it. From birth, almost any person within this country is going to understand there is a difference between a domesticated animal and a vermin, which is what a mouse is.

The wanton torture and killing of said animals, not out of any kind of necessity but out of sport and greed, is far different than the killing of something considered a vermin for the sake of health. Much like killing someone upon the battle field is different than breaking into someones home and shooting them dead because you want their stereo.

This isn't excusing what Stallworth did, but I think you're attempting to devalue what Mike Vick did to try and prop up Stallworths, which actually seems to devalue your case against Stallworth.

I'm not trying to devaluing what Vick did, so much as apply the correct value. The issue is definitely societal. And we've OVERvalued what Vick did to the point that we have already DEvalued what Stallworth did.

This imbalance is already present.

I'm calling for a correction of our views on things, because what they are now is completely ****ed up.


With humans, there can be justifiable reasons to kill someone. Such as while waging war. And there are also unjustifiable reasons.

With animals, there is no such distinction. Killing an animal that you own is always justifiable. There is no such thing as unjustified canicide.

Torturing an animal is the only thing that can be considered criminal. Simply killing an animal that you own should not be a crime. Ever.

What Mike Vick did that was wrong was the way he killed the animals, not the fact that he killed them. But they are his property.

If I kill someone else's animal, I should be charged with criminal damage to property and that is it. That's all I did.

The difference between domesticated animals and non-domesticated animals is that domesticated animals are property, and property rights indicate that you can do wit them as you wish.

If I own a cow, I am allowed to slaughter that animal and eat it with no risk of penalty. I should also have that right with my dog.

What I should not have a right to do is torture that animal. Again, this is where Vick went wrong. If he killed these animals in a humane fashion, such as putting them to sleep, he should have only gotten done up on th eillegal gambling ring.

But at the same time, we aren't discussing the comparison of Justifiable homicide (soldiers at war) and torturing dogs. We are comparing an UNjustifiable homicide and torturing dogs.

Only in a world that has gone completely bonkers is the torturing of animals put on the same level or above unjustifiable homicide.
 
Chimpanzees murder each other all the time. Tons of animals kill for fun. Certain wasps actually create zombies that are tortured to death. Killer whales torture seals before they eat them by tossing them in the air and smacking them with their tails.

Nature is far more brutal than you think.

Though I don't deny what you wrote above, I do think it's exaggerated.

In any event, as I posted earlier, animals go by instinct while we have the ability to think logically and reason.


I'm not comparing the attention as much as the outrage. If Tiger killed a dude in a DUI it would surely get attention, but not as much as Vick did, and nowhere near as much outrage.

I disagree with the bolded part. I do think it would generate as much press, but I guess we'll never know for sure.

As far as outrage, I agree. But that because when sober, Tiger is not a murderer.
 
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