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Thread: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    If I own a cow, I am allowed to slaughter that animal and eat it with no risk of penalty. I should also have that right with my dog.

    I'd say only in the circumstance that you killed your dog in a quick and efficient manner, and then ate it. Otherwise, if you decided to kill it just for kicks, then it is purely and unequivocly wrong.

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Though I don't deny what you wrote above, I do think it's exaggerated.

    In any event, as I posted earlier, animals go by instinct while we have the ability to think logically and reason.
    It's not exaggerated at all. If anything, I gave the cliff notes version with only a few examples. There are many, many more. The idea that murder does not happen in the animal kingdom is a total myth. Murder, rape, slavery... all of those things exist.

    Read up on juvenile male elephants for some info on pleasure killing in animals. Those ****ers are downright monstrous. If a male leopard is raised in captivity with a female and they don't hit puberty at the same time, the male will kill the female. Invariably.

    Animals will eat their young (this is something you would assume runs counter to instinct). Pigs are well-documented in doing this. Rats as well. And, again, Leopards must be separated from their young over it.

    A male lion that takes over a pride will immediately kill all of the former pride leaders offspring and basically rape the females.

    AS Cripp pointed out, Bottlenose dolphins are ****ing maniacs. A spotted dolphin that stumbles upon a group of bottlenosed dolphins is going to get killed or beaten severely.

    If anything, what I gave was underexagerated. There is a persistent myth that animals do not engage in heinous behaviors, but it is a fairy tale.


    I disagree with the bolded part. I do think it wopuld generate as much press, but I guess we'll never know for sure.

    As far as outrage, I agree. But that because when sober, Tiger is not a murderer.
    How the hell could you possibly know that Tiger isn't a murderer? I'm guessing in 1989 people might have said that very same thing about OJ. ****, in 1993 people were saying that about OJ.

    The thing is, you can't possibly know that Tiger Woods is not a murderer. You don't know the guy. You can't possibly make the statement that he's not a murderer without actually knowing him.


    And also, Mike Vick is not a murderer for what he did. That kind of nonsense is why this is being blown out of proportion. Killing Dogs =/= murder.

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I'd say only in the circumstance that you killed your dog in a quick and efficient manner, and then ate it. Otherwise, if you decided to kill it just for kicks, then it is purely and unequivocly wrong.
    So long as I don't torture it, it is my property to do with as I wish.

    Maybe I want to make a trophy out of it.

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    I actually think Tiger killing someone while DUI would be absolutely huge, and bigger than the Vick thing. Vick was a gifted thug. I know some people were shocked and outraged by his dog fighting ring, but considering him and his younger brothers past, and the dog fighting culture that is pervasive in young black mens culture I wasn't terribly shocked.

    Tiger is on a whole different level. Tiger going to jail on manslaughter would invariably affect the game of golf way more than Vick or Stallworth affect football. Tiger is my generations greatest "athlete" regardless of if you think of golf as requiring athleticism or not. He's one of those transcendent figures that is much more than just being a very good pro-golfer. Him getting a DUI manslaughter charge would be huge. I think bigger than the Vick thing. FWIW, Stallworth should be bigger than the Vick thing, but he's not a transcendent figure like Tiger. For my generation, nobody else is.
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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I actually think Tiger killing someone while DUI would be absolutely huge, and bigger than the Vick thing. Vick was a gifted thug. I know some people were shocked and outraged by his dog fighting ring, but considering him and his younger brothers past, and the dog fighting culture that is pervasive in young black mens culture I wasn't terribly shocked.

    Tiger is on a whole different level. Tiger going to jail on manslaughter would invariably affect the game of golf way more than Vick or Stallworth affect football. Tiger is my generations greatest "athlete" regardless of if you think of golf as requiring athleticism or not. He's one of those transcendent figures that is much more than just being a very good pro-golfer. Him getting a DUI manslaughter charge would be huge. I think bigger than the Vick thing. FWIW, Stallworth should be bigger than the Vick thing, but he's not a transcendent figure like Tiger. For my generation, nobody else is.
    Perhaps. Tiger does have that transcendent thing going.

    Maybe a good comparison regarding "outrage" would be Michael Phelps and his bong. There is far more outrage with that (even still) than there is about Stallworth killing someone.

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Perhaps. Tiger does have that transcendent thing going.

    Maybe a good comparison regarding "outrage" would be Michael Phelps and his bong. There is far more outrage with that (even still) than there is about Stallworth killing someone.
    Thats true. The Phelps thing dominated the headlines, and Stallworth is about 35 minutes into sportscenter. Its most likely to do with the transcendent quality of the individual. Phelps was Tiger Woods, for the Olympics. People that didn't give a crap about swimming tuned in for Phelps, just like people who don't care about golf, will tune in to see how he's doing, particularly towards the end of a major championship.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    What the **** are you on about? When did I ever say he should be charged with premeditated murder?

    I say he willingly committed a crime. And he did. He drove drunk. Did everyone forget that DUI is a ****ing crime?

    While he was in the ACT of committing that WILLFUL crime, he killed someone. Is it your contention that he did not willfully drive drunk?

    That would be the ridiculous comment, not mine.
    Tucker, Ikari goes nuts on anyone who says that a drunk driver should be charged with a crime. He went nuts on me in this thread. *yawn*

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/Death-...hs-murder.html

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Thats true. The Phelps thing dominated the headlines, and Stallworth is about 35 minutes into sportscenter. Its most likely to do with the transcendent quality of the individual. Phelps was Tiger Woods, for the Olympics. People that didn't give a crap about swimming tuned in for Phelps, just like people who don't care about golf, will tune in to see how he's doing, particularly towards the end of a major championship.
    Yeah, but nobody gives a rat's ass about Phelps between Olympics, even though he is still swimming. He's not nearly on the level that Tiger is.

    And Phelps' DUI got buried as well. People don't care as much about human life as they do about controversy, and that is the real issue here. Dog fighting ring makes a far more juicy story than "Mario Reyes killed by Dante Stallworth in DUI accident". "Phelps caught on camera with bong" is juicier than "Phelps arrested for DUI"

    The sad truth is, if Stallworth had killed a celebrity, even a crappy celebrity, in a DUI accident, THEN we'd see some outrage. Imagine the frenzy if the headline was "Stallworth kills Paris Hilton in DUI accident".

    All of a sudden, I think we might see some outrage. It's the info-tainment aspect.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 04-02-09 at 10:27 AM.

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    Tucker, Ikari goes nuts on anyone who says that a drunk driver should be charged with a crime. He went nuts on me in this thread. *yawn*

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/Death-...hs-murder.html
    He goes nuts when people try to get it charged as murder, and I agree with him on that. It isn't murder. It is manslaughter/negligent homicide. That's all it should be, at least with a first time offense. If it happens twice, I think murder is more reasonable.

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    Re: AP sources: Browns' Stallworth will be charged with DUI manslaughter

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm not trying to devaluing what Vick did, so much as apply the correct value. The issue is definitely societal. And we've OVERvalued what Vick did to the point that we have already DEvalued what Stallworth did.

    This imbalance is already present.

    I'm calling for a correction of our views on things, because what they are now is completely ****ed up.


    With humans, there can be justifiable reasons to kill someone. Such as while waging war. And there are also unjustifiable reasons.

    With animals, there is no such distinction. Killing an animal that you own is always justifiable. There is no such thing as unjustified canicide.

    Torturing an animal is the only thing that can be considered criminal. Simply killing an animal that you own should not be a crime. Ever.

    What Mike Vick did that was wrong was the way he killed the animals, not the fact that he killed them. But they are his property.

    If I kill someone else's animal, I should be charged with criminal damage to property and that is it. That's all I did.

    The difference between domesticated animals and non-domesticated animals is that domesticated animals are property, and property rights indicate that you can do wit them as you wish.

    If I own a cow, I am allowed to slaughter that animal and eat it with no risk of penalty. I should also have that right with my dog.

    What I should not have a right to do is torture that animal. Again, this is where Vick went wrong. If he killed these animals in a humane fashion, such as putting them to sleep, he should have only gotten done up on th eillegal gambling ring.

    But at the same time, we aren't discussing the comparison of Justifiable homicide (soldiers at war) and torturing dogs. We are comparing an UNjustifiable homicide and torturing dogs.

    Only in a world that has gone completely bonkers is the torturing of animals put on the same level or above unjustifiable homicide.
    But you are devaluing what Vick did, at least criminally, because you're focusing souly and completely on the issue of the killing of dogs. That's not the heart of the criminal case, but the gambling and racketeering is.

    So what is it you're discussing here Tucker.

    Are you talking about the reason why society views Vick's issue as a bigger thing in terms of coverage? If it is, I gave you a plethora of reasons for that you haven't touched yet.

    Are you talking about the reasons why you think criminally Vicks issue isn't bigger than Stallworths? If that's the case, you need to spread your argument to something farther than just killing dogs.

    I think this is just going to be something I disagree with. I've known someone who, along with his girlfriend, got drunk one night and went driving. The girl climbed halfway out the driver side window as he was speeding down the road, hit something, fell out, and ended up dieing. None of it would've happened if he hadn't chosen to get drunk, his girlfriend to get drunk, and to go speeding down the road at 1:00 AM. That said, I do not believe his action is anywhere on the level of "immorality" as someone who purposefully and willfully tortures and hurts another being through force for their own financial gain and pleasure. You can say "its a dog" all you want. To me, personally, those are extremely different things on the moral scale.

    More simply.

    Stallworth's singular action, driving intoxicated, was an immoral act as it was criminal and endangering to others. Him hitting someone ACCIDENTALLy is not IMMORAL, but it came about DUE to an immoral act.

    Vick's was not a singular action. It was a pattern of or repeated immoral acts over years worth of times, and stacked immoral acts on top of immoral acts. From torturing dogs, to breaking gambling laws, to out and out lieing to the country.

    If you ask me who the more immoral person was, I'd say Vick. If you said who did the more immoral thing, I'd say Vick. If you asked me whose action was more devestating, I'd say Stallworth. If you asked me whose act was more unlawful I'd likely say Stallworth but I honestly don't know the law well enough to tell you the difference legally between major interstate gambling charges and manslaughter. If you asked me which instance was sadder I'd say the Stallworth one, because yes, someone died.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    I actually think Tiger killing someone while DUI would be absolutely huge, and bigger than the Vick thing. Vick was a gifted thug. I know some people were shocked and outraged by his dog fighting ring, but considering him and his younger brothers past, and the dog fighting culture that is pervasive in young black mens culture I wasn't terribly shocked.

    Tiger is on a whole different level. Tiger going to jail on manslaughter would invariably affect the game of golf way more than Vick or Stallworth affect football. Tiger is my generations greatest "athlete" regardless of if you think of golf as requiring athleticism or not. He's one of those transcendent figures that is much more than just being a very good pro-golfer. Him getting a DUI manslaughter charge would be huge. I think bigger than the Vick thing. FWIW, Stallworth should be bigger than the Vick thing, but he's not a transcendent figure like Tiger. For my generation, nobody else is.
    Which this kind of goes to my earlier post about why, societally, Vicks was a bigger issue than Stallworth's would ever be.

    Lets not even go with Tiger. Lets go with something comparable to Mike Vick. Lets go with Peyton Manning.

    Vick, at the time, was arguably a top 5 name (name, not skill) Quarterback in the NFL. Peyton Manning is also a top 5 name in the NFL. If Peyton Manning ended up getting drunk and killing someone, I would almost garauntee it would get more media attention and have more societal impact than Donte Stallworth or Leonard Little.

    If you want something sad out of this, I'd say this would be it....

    Drunk Driving deaths have became so common place in this country at this point that it simply isn't a "major" news story when someone dies from it, because its not something unusual. That is sad. Its the fact of the unusual nature of Vick's crime that helped add to the societal interest in that case.

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