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Thread: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

  1. #121
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    What you fail to understand:
    The term ANY doesn't allow for context.
    The term ANY requires context. If I say "any growth" how do you know what I am not talking about? I could be referring to a person, plant, or revenue.

    If I say "will not see any plant growth" when referring to an Oak tree in context does that mean that all plants in the entire world will see no growth or that the oak tree will not see growth?
    Last edited by Gibberish; 04-02-09 at 04:29 PM.
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    This is what I am talking about with context. You purposefully leave out the beginning of his statement. Why? Because it disproves your conclusion and puts the statement in context.

    Except..
    you come from the party that is so careful not to say Muslim terrorists, the logic being (I guess) that people somewhere, somehow might think all Muslims are terrorists.
    AND
    your party didn't like Bush posing in front of that "mission accomplished" sign because people somewhere, somehow might mistake it to mean that the whole war was over (I guess was the thinking?? I have a hard time following liberal logic) instead of just the ship's mission being accomplished.
    AND
    your party believes people should be bailed out from paying their mortgages because maybe the contracts they signed weren't explained to them properly, never mind that they were adults just like everyone else who has to pay their mortgages

    SO - I think it's fair to hold you to the same standard you have set yourself. Obama should have been more clear. If not, if you trust people to get things from context than relax your standards for the Right. Speak the truth. Say Muslim terrorists. Trust that people will understand from *context* that saying Muslim terrorists implies all by itself that not all Muslims are terrorists. Mission Accomplished! Navy ships put up those banners all the time! They celebrate victories large and small, lol.

    If Obama says no new taxes on the lower and middle classes, it should mean just that. I've been watching the debates in this thread and I'm not sure which side is right, frankly.

    I don't know why we're focusing on peanuts like cigs anyway. He's proposing nearly one TRILLION in new taxes over the next 10 years. That's going to hit everyone.

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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    The term ANY requires context.
    You can continue with your "any doesn't REALLY mean 'any' it means 'someting other than 'any', but in a way that the meaning of 'any' still applies'" argument if you want -- it clearly illustratres that you're one of the people that will argue the meaning of 'is' in order to avoid being wrong..

    Enjoy!
    Last edited by Goobieman; 04-02-09 at 04:39 PM.

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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You can continue with your "any doesn't REALLY mean 'any' it means 'someting other than 'any', but in a way that the meaning of 'any' still applies'" argument if you want -- it clearly illustratres that you're one of the people that will argue the meaning of 'is' in order to avoid being wrong..

    Enjoy!
    Only if it's being interpreted improperly.
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  5. #125
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    Except..
    you come from the party that is so careful not to say Muslim terrorists, the logic being (I guess) that people somewhere, somehow might think all Muslims are terrorists.
    Many people believe that muslim=terrorist. View some of McCain campaign attendee interviews.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    AND
    your party didn't like Bush posing in front of that "mission accomplished" sign because people somewhere, somehow might mistake it to mean that the whole war was over (I guess was the thinking?? I have a hard time following liberal logic) instead of just the ship's mission being accomplished.
    Bush's administration even admitted it was a bad move.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    AND
    your party believes people should be bailed out from paying their mortgages because maybe the contracts they signed weren't explained to them properly, never mind that they were adults just like everyone else who has to pay their mortgages
    No, they should be bailed-out because having tens of millions of home go into foreclosure will destroy our housing economy. They should also not be "bailed out", they should have to pay for their choice but with the ability of not losing their home. Why not lose their home? Because that will negatively affect me, the responsible home buyer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    SO - I think it's fair to hold you to the same standard you have set yourself. Obama should have been more clear. If not, if you trust people to get things from context than relax your standards for the Right. Speak the truth. Say Muslim terrorists. Trust that people will understand from *context* that saying Muslim terrorists implies all by itself that not all Muslims are terrorists. Mission Accomplished! Navy ships put up those banners all the time! They celebrate victories large and small, lol.
    He was perfectly clear. Those people under the specific income levels will not have to have any tax increase based on their income level. Tobacco, is not an income level based tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    If Obama says no new taxes on the lower and middle classes, it should mean just that. I've been watching the debates in this thread and I'm not sure which side is right, frankly.
    If he said that then he should live up to. The fact is he didn't say "no new taxes". He said no tax increase based on income level, thus taxes associated to income level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    I don't know why we're focusing on peanuts like cigs anyway. He's proposing nearly one TRILLION in new taxes over the next 10 years. That's going to hit everyone.
    According to the plan he proposed it will not. I assume your total also includes the non-new additional taxes once Bush's self-expiring tax cut runs out.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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  6. #126
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    I am late to the thread, but here is 2 cents worth on it:

    He stated:

    "Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes."

    I don't think that the majority of people would think that raising taxes on cigarettes is a violation of that promise even if most smokers are poor. If it is, then raising the entrance fee to a forest service recreation area would be a violation of that promise because the middle class are more apt to use those areas than the richest of Americans. A targeted tax on tobacco products is not the same thing as a tax increase on payroll taxes, income, and so on. If this is a broken promise, then raising any kinds of fees would be a broken promise. For example, what is the difference between a tax increase on tobacco and a fee increase on passports? What would be the difference in a tax increase on tobacco, and a fee increase on backcountry permits? Either way, your increasing the costs on a chosen activity and those costs would primarily impact the Middle Class as they are the largest demographic taking part in those activities. Reagan said he would not increase taxes, but he increased fees on all kinds of services. Did he break his promise?

    If people complain about everything, then no one is going to listen to them when they actually have something legitimate to complain about.

    That all said, I totally agree with raising the taxes on smokes. Not because I am for sin taxes, but rather because of the costs smokers place on the rest of us.

    One of the biggest problems we have in our society today is that one's bad choices in life are very often subsidized by others. You can smoke your whole life, and when you get lung cancer at 67 year years old, the rest of us pick up the tab for your treatment through Medicare taxes. You can take terrible care of yourself, spend a lifetime of not eating right, and when you end up with diabetes, the rest of us get to pick up the tab for your medical care.

    These are poor life choices that individuals freely choose to make in life, and others have to pay for the costs of their near inevitable consequences. This is what economists would call a Moral Hazard. This is completely different from say a child having Cerebral Palsy, or a woman ending up with breast cancer. Those are medical issues that those individuals have through no fault of their own. Big difference in that and a smoker getting lung cancer, or an obese individual ending up with heart disease or diabetes.

    You have a right to live your life the way you chose to do so. If you want to smoke, you can and should have the freedom to do so. If you don't want to take care of yourself, never exercise, and eat poorly your whole life, then you have a right to do so. Free societies require the principle of Self Ownership, and that certainly falls underneath Self Ownership. However, you do not have the right to burden others with the costs and consequences of your poor life choices. So while you should be able to smoke, others should not have to subsidize the consequences of your choice to smoke. Similarly, you should be able to eat what ever you want, and get as fat as you want, but others should not have to subsidize the consequences of your choice to do so. Its not fascism at all to tax smokers more for the costs of their choice to smoke.

    The problem is that as a society, and as individuals, we cannot in good conscience deny a lifelong smoker medical treatment for emphysema or lung cancer. What we can do is say look, your poor choices are going to cost us all a lot of money, so you need to pay for your poor choices rather than burdening the rest of us with it.
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Why aren't the partisans here praising Obama for cutting property taxes?

    After all, his failure to quickly solve the credit crisis is causing property values to decline reducing property taxes.

    Obama's policies have directly reduced taxes for millions of homeowners in this country.

    So where is the praise?

    Oh wait. I forgot that virtually no one here applies standards evenly.
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Why aren't the partisans here praising Obama for cutting property taxes?

    After all, his failure to quickly solve the credit crisis is causing property values to decline reducing property taxes.

    Obama's policies have directly reduced taxes for millions of homeowners in this country.

    So where is the praise?

    Oh wait. I forgot that virtually no one here applies standards evenly.


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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I assume your total also includes the non-new additional taxes once Bush's self-expiring tax cut runs out.
    Yes, I believe it does.

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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I am late to the thread, but here is 2 cents worth on it:

    He stated:

    "Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes."



    /thread



    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 04-02-09 at 06:21 PM.
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