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Thread: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    While some of us here are holding Obama's feet to the fire by being facetious and taking his campaign promise literally, there are some that do see this as a broken campaign promise and is directly affecting their lives in a negative way.

    What's troubling to me, is the fact that everytime the government tries to raise revenue, it targets tobacco, alcohol, firearms and/or gambling, and imposes additional taxes on these items/industries.

    The last time I checked, tobacco wasn't illegal, so people can freely choose whether or not they want to partake in it's usage or not. The argument of health concerns is bs, because we can argue obesity, car emissions and a myriad of other causes in regard to health issues. We live in a free society, we should be able to choose without being taxed out of our freedoms.
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    At best, it is a not-so-carefully crafted exceptionary statement, so that when He DOES raise those taxes, He can say 'well, I promised not to raise INCOME taxes -- and this isnt an income tax".

    (Note how this is EXACTLY the argument used for His defense...)
    Of course it is, that is the EXACT CONTEXT of his statement.

    What you are doing is saying Obama's statement about income taxes applies to all and any forms of taxes and not just income taxes. Which is absurd.
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    For example...

    Lets say this was something different. Lets say a random politician started going "Under my administration I promise we will have no new entitlement programs. We won't have new health care programs, we won't have new perscription programs, we won't have new daycare programs. We won't have any new programs".

    If he then comes out and create a program that provides those that are unemployed a chance to attend a course where they learn a job skill and actually do said job while learning it (for example, normal trade skills), would he be lying?

    While it is a government program, its not technically an "entitlement" program. However, he did say "any new programs" at the end of it. Do you say the person is lying, becuase he did create a new program and that goes against what he literally said, or do you say he wasn't lying but perhaps misspoke because the CONTEXT of it makes it clear he's talking specifically about entitlement programs?
    I believe I addressed this:

    That depends. When he said it, did he know (or think there was a distinct possibility) that, if elected, he would create that program??

    If so, then its a lie -- or, at best, it is a not-so-carefully crafted exceptionary statement -- and so, at BEST, it is a deliberately misleading statement.

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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Of course it is, that is the EXACT CONTEXT of his statement.

    What you are doing is saying Obama's statement about income taxes applies to all and any forms of taxes and not just income taxes. Which is absurd.
    I asked for the stipulation within the term "any taxes" that excludes taxes on tobacco. I haven't received a response.

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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    How is that not an entitlement program? They are "entitled" to that course.
    haha, perhaps I myself misspoke there in trying to type something quick between work. I was thining of entitlement programs very much in a "we'll give you something and you do nothing for it". We'll give you health insurance, we'll give you daycare, we'll give you perscription drugs. You don't have to do anything specific for it.

    The second program to me wouldn't really seem like an entitlement program from my definition of it. You're not giving them something for nothing; you're providing them an oppertunity to learn a trade while in exchange they are performing that trade for free and generating revenue through the process of it for those they are learning from.

    Likely bad use of words on my part due to hastey typing up. If you really wanted to you could change it to a random ass program about subsidizing local police units, or repairing major highways. Essentially any "program". I was just trying for a type of "welfare" program, so that it'd be in the same realm as entitlement programs, without it truly being an "entitlement" program.

    If that makes any sense (IE, entitlement programs = welfare programs, but welfare programs don't necessarily = entitlement programs)

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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I asked for the stipulation within the term "any taxes" that excludes taxes on tobacco. I haven't received a response.
    The fact that he was talking about INCOME TAXES and not all forms of taxes when he made that statement isn't stipulation?
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    haha, perhaps I myself misspoke there in trying to type something quick between work. I was thining of entitlement programs very much in a "we'll give you something and you do nothing for it". We'll give you health insurance, we'll give you daycare, we'll give you perscription drugs. You don't have to do anything specific for it.

    The second program to me wouldn't really seem like an entitlement program from my definition of it. You're not giving them something for nothing; you're providing them an oppertunity to learn a trade while in exchange they are performing that trade for free and generating revenue through the process of it for those they are learning from.

    Likely bad use of words on my part due to hastey typing up. If you really wanted to you could change it to a random ass program about subsidizing local police units, or repairing major highways. Essentially any "program". I was just trying for a type of "welfare" program, so that it'd be in the same realm as entitlement programs, without it truly being an "entitlement" program.

    If that makes any sense (IE, entitlement programs = welfare programs, but welfare programs don't necessarily = entitlement programs)



    I see what you are attempting. I can't see how you can apply it though. If one made a statement such as you said, then built up the roads, it would still be it....


    Now if I said, I am going to play everyone on my hockey team equally.... If one player ends up at the end of the game with more or less ice time by a minute or so, Would I be lying? I would say no.....
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    The fact that he was talking about INCOME TAXES and not all forms of taxes when he made that statement isn't stipulation?
    Nope. "Any" is an all-encomapssing term.
    Just like "all" and "never".

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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    While some of us here are holding Obama's feet to the fire by being facetious and taking his campaign promise literally, there are some that do see this as a broken campaign promise and is directly affecting their lives in a negative way.

    What's troubling to me, is the fact that everytime the government tries to raise revenue, it targets tobacco, alcohol, firearms and/or gambling, and imposes additional taxes on these items/industries.

    The last time I checked, tobacco wasn't illegal, so people can freely choose whether or not they want to partake in it's usage or not. The argument of health concerns is bs, because we can argue obesity, car emissions and a myriad of other causes in regard to health issues. We live in a free society, we should be able to choose without being taxed out of our freedoms.
    I completely agree with your premise here. To me this "tobacco tax" is a terrible idea and on it's face is simply a lower measure of illegalization. Instead of making tobacco illegal they are going to jack the price so high that it becomes financially inconvenient to purchase. That's plain manipulation.
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    Re: PROMISES, PROMISES: Obama tax pledge up in smoke

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    The fact that he was talking about INCOME TAXES and not all forms of taxes when he made that statement isn't stipulation?


    I can ALMOST see it... However. when he stated "not one dime" that to me was "all encompassing" no?
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