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Thread: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

  1. #41
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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    It should also be noted that the people named in this action simply advised the POTUS.

    OBL 11/24/02

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    [I"]The 98-page complaint is based on the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Convention Against Torture, which is binding on 145 countries, including Spain and the United States. Countries that are party to the torture convention have the authority to investigate torture cases, especially when a citizen has been abused."[/I]

    As signees to the Conventions, both Spain and the United States agreed to aggresively prosecute any instance of torture. Spain is simply living up to its commitment. The question is, why didn't the United States act first, before Spain?
    This claim is based on allegations of torture at Guantanamo. A report conducted by the Obama Administration concluded that nothing at Guantanamo violated the Geneva Convention.

    Why would we prosecute something that we concluded didn't happen? Or are you calling Obama a liar?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This claim is based on allegations of torture at Guantanamo. A report conducted by the Obama Administration concluded that nothing at Guantanamo violated the Geneva Convention.

    Why would we prosecute something that we concluded didn't happen? Or are you calling Obama a liar?
    The U.S. has a highly competent legal system. If there were credible and sufficient evidence, legal cases would have a chance at success in the U.S. judicial system. The allegations likely are far more politically-motivated than credible. Hence, those making the allegations are using a foreign court system--one with a sordid history of attempting to carve out extraterritorial jurisdiction for itself--to proceed with a politically-motivated case.

    It is unfortunate that some, who are unable to accept the limits of their political allegations, go shopping for courts in a bid to contrive a sense of legitimacy for their charges that would be unlikely to stand the scrutiny of a rigorous judicial process. It is even worse that some foreign judges choose to participate in such a political process, even as they lack jurisdiction.

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The U.S. has a highly competent legal system.
    Sure...Tell that to the falsely convicted and the victims of O.J.Simpson and so on. The US legal system can be corrupted like any other... by money and political pressure and lately by religious radicals on the right.

    If there were credible and sufficient evidence, legal cases would have a chance at success in the U.S. judicial system.
    No. Several reasons.

    1. The US government at the time would have claimed everything from national security to it happening outside the jurisdiction of the court to prevent or/and delay any investigation or trial..... no wait they already did that for 5+ years. I am also sure that the Obama administration would use the same tactic since the political ramifications could play right into the hands of the enemy... however that does not make it right or justify the actions of the Bush administration.

    2. The US government has not allowed access to Gitmo by any 3rd party other than the Red Cross. The Red Cross have even had their access limited. Hence any evidence would have to come from the US government... yea right in a pigs eye. Considering that the CIA has destroyed interrogation tapes, that hundreds of thousands of emails "disappeared" from the White House and all the other "funny facts" about the Bush administration then well.

    Like it or not, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that the US government with Bush and his minions not only were complicit but actually promoted the torture of person's they saw as a threat. We have Rumsfeldt admitting to giving the order to the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" and the Bush memos by the DOJ attempting to justify the use of torture. We have person after person coming forward claiming on being kidnapped and tortured by the US administration, and we have the deaths of detainees. So yes when there is smoke there is usually a fire too.

    The allegations likely are far more politically-motivated than credible.
    Considering the subject, then yes it is politically motivated. Anything involving the Bush administration is politically motivated as there was no accountability during the reign of Fuhrer Bush. But it is also very much motivated by the facts and evidence and wanting to punish the people who were not held accountable during their reign of terror .. I mean their administration.

    Hence, those making the allegations are using a foreign court system--one with a sordid history of attempting to carve out extraterritorial jurisdiction for itself--to proceed with a politically-motivated case.
    It is funny that the Spanish court system has prosecuted more of these cases than anyone else. It took the Spanish court system to put Pinochet on trial. It took the Spanish court system to put the facist right wing murders of Argentina on trial. At least there is some systems that believe in the rule of law and going after mass murders. That is more than the US system does.

    It is unfortunate that some, who are unable to accept the limits of their political allegations, go shopping for courts in a bid to contrive a sense of legitimacy for their charges that would be unlikely to stand the scrutiny of a rigorous judicial process.
    And when the US court system demands the extradition of nationals of other nations because of charges pending in the US? I guess that is okay?

    As for standing the scrutiny of a rigorous judicial process..... I guess you have no clue on the history of this court and what it has done. This court took up the Pinochet case, and because of this court, Pinochet was arrested in London on request of the Spanish court system. Because of this court case, Pinochet had his immunity finally removed not long before his death. This alone was a triumph and kept the crimes of the US backed Pinochet regime in Chile in the lime light.

    Thanks to this Spanish law, Adolfo Scilingo was put on trial and sentenced to 540 years for his part in the Argentinian dirty war.

    How many war criminals has the US courts convicted lately?

    It is even worse that some foreign judges choose to participate in such a political process, even as they lack jurisdiction.
    They have no choice, it is the law. Its called Universal Jurisdiction. I am guessing you are against such a thing.

    Then you are against Israel, because Israel has used this justification to apprehend and try Nazi war criminals.. are you an anti semitic jew hater?!?! (yes that is ironic and sarcastic)

    Several countries have Universal Jurisdiction and they are mostly used in cases of crimes against humanity and war crimes. These countries include, UK, Canada, France, Belgium, Israel and Spain.

    In fact... the US has Universal Jurisdiction too... well kind off. Since the US has taken Afghanis that attacked US troops and put them in Gitmo on "terror charges" and plan to put them on trial... then the US are prosecuting non nationals for supposed crimes committed in their home country against the US. But I guess you have no problem with that right?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Sure...Tell that to the falsely convicted and the victims of O.J.Simpson and so on. The US legal system can be corrupted like any other... by money and political pressure and lately by religious radicals on the right.
    A "highly competent" legal system is not the same thing as a perfect one. There is no perfect legal system anywhere. Perfection is beyond the grasp of any individual or any human institution. No matter how rigorous the evidentiary process might be or how independent a court system might be from outside influences, there is always the chance of a bad outcome. The O.J. Simpson murder case is but one example.

    However, recognizing the existence of error, the U.S. legal system--and many elsewhere--is built on a principle of a presumption of innocence. Persons need to be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, not the other way around. Society is more willing to accept that a guilty person goes free than an innocent person is wrongfully convicted.

    Nonetheless, for all the safeguards and the principle of a presumption of innocence, the latter outcome is not unknown. Recent cases in which DNA evidence exonerated persons convicted of murder highlight that kind of outcome (and they form a powerful case against capital punishment, given that the sentence, once carried out, is irreversible).

    And when the US court system demands the extradition of nationals of other nations because of charges pending in the US? I guess that is okay?
    If an individual committed a crime in the U.S. and then fled abroad, it is appropriate. If not, I oppose efforts to apply extraterritorial jurisdiction.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 03-31-09 at 12:39 PM.

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    the reign of Fuhrer Bush
    And with that, the tattered shreds of your credibility exploded into thin air.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And with that, the tattered shreds of your credibility exploded into thin air.
    Well exactly! And that post couldn't be a more perfect example of how I summed this up several days ago... and deserves repeating:

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Here's what this is all about in a nutshell. There's a certain small percent of the population in both the U.S. and Europe who are driven by a seething hatred of George W. Bush, his administration, his father, his wife, his children, and his dogs...

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    The same group pushing this have been pushing it for years.

    Started in the USA and failed.
    Moved to the UK and failed. Moved to Germany and Failed,,Moved to France and Failed...now they are in Spain. I think they tried in Austria and the Low Countries as well. Just do an internet search you will find stuff.

    Its sign wavers who somehow got diplomas.

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    A "highly competent" legal system is not the same thing as a perfect one. There is no perfect legal system anywhere. Perfection is beyond the grasp of any individual or any human institution. No matter how rigorous the evidentiary process might be or how independent a court system might be from outside influences, there is always the chance of a bad outcome. The O.J. Simpson murder case is but one example.

    However, recognizing the existence of error, the U.S. legal system--and many elsewhere--is built on a principle of a presumption of innocence. Persons need to be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, not the other way around. Society is more willing to accept that a guilty person goes free than an innocent person is wrongfully convicted.

    Nonetheless, for all the safeguards and the principle of a presumption of innocence, the latter outcome is not unknown. Recent cases in which DNA evidence exonerated persons convicted of murder highlight that kind of outcome (and they form a powerful case against capital punishment, given that the sentence, once carried out, is irreversible).
    Then why are you demeaning the Spanish legal system? Or do you really think that only the US legal system is worthy of your "praise" and all others are not up to grade?

    If an individual committed a crime in the U.S. and then fled abroad, it is appropriate. If not, I oppose efforts to apply extraterritorial jurisdiction.
    Good to hear, but sadly that is not the case of the US government.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And with that, the tattered shreds of your credibility exploded into thin air.
    Hardly, the US conservative movement has been treating him like it so why not call him that? Defending torture, kidnappings, murder and removal of basic rights of Americans... defending every word and action he has ever done. That sounds like blind devotion like the German people did with Hitler. So the comparison is valid.
    PeteEU

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