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Thread: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

  1. #31
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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And you expect O'Reilly to tell you the truth?

    Gonzalo Boye is one of several lawyers who filed the suit. So he aint "the attorney" behind the lawsuit. He is one of many.

    As for him collaborating with terrorists. Other than the usual right wing wacko sites promoting this little fact to cover up and blur out the facts the case, there is very little online evidence that it is true. In fact all the right wing sites have zero evidence to back up their claims.

    The only reference I could find is from El Mundo, a conservative Spanish newspaper. And this newspaper, along with the Conservatives in Spain have it "in" for anyone connected with the Madrid attacks and exposing the hypocrisy and stupidity of the Spanish right at the time. And guess where Mr. Boye has gained some fame in Spain?... working for the Madrid bombings victims against the Spanish Government and especially the former right wing government.. So one has to question the validity of the claim here also.

    So far, this just another right wing attempt to distort the facts and the issue in such a way that the no one will remember what the hell the whole issue is about.
    So who is the heroic “human-rights” activist behind the effort to criminalize the provision of legal advice to America’s commander-in-chief? The complaint was filed by one Gonzalo Boye, whom the New York Times charitably describes as a “Madrid lawyer.” Unmentioned is how Boye came to be a Madrid lawyer. He obtained his law degree in a Spanish prison. According to reports in the Spanish press (read here), Boye, a Chilean, was a member of the terrorist Revolutionary Left Movement (MIR) when, in collusion with the ETA, Spain’s Marxist-Leninist Basque terrorist outfit, he participated in the abduction of a Spanish businessman, Emiliano Revilla.
    Spain’s ‘Universal Jurisdiction’ Power Play by Andrew C. McCarthy on National Review Online

    If you've got any evidence that this isn't true, I'd like to see it.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    From the September 4, 2003 edition of the Financial Times:

    CHILEAN ETA SUSPECT WANTED IN SPAIN GIVES HIMSELF UP IN CHILE

    Chilean national Ramiro Silva Vial, who is accused in Spain of having taken part in the kidnapping by ETA of businessman Emiliano Revilla in 1988, gave himself up to the courts of his own free will yesterday. Silva, a former member of the Movement of the Revolutionary Left (MIR), reported to the police accompanied by his lawyer, Pablo Gatica, and was immediately handed over to Supreme Court judge Hernan Alvarez, who is in charge of the case.

    In June the highest Chilean court agreed to process the application for the extradition of Silva, whom the Spanish courts accuse of belonging to a terrorist band, unlawful possession of weapons and explosives and having forged papers.

    Ramiro Silva collaborated along with other members of the MIR - a group which engaged in armed resistance to the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet - in the kidnapping of Emiliano Revilla, who was held by ETA for eight months in 1988, Efe reports.

    According to legal sources, the former member of MIR carried out guard duties during the kidnapping with other members of the Chilean group which collaborated with the Basque terrorist band.

    Three other Chileans, Alexis Corbalan Munoz, Rene Valenzuela Bejas and Gonzalo Boye Tusset, served prison sentences in Spain and are currently at liberty, but Silva escaped during the proceedings, when he was out on bail.
    A quick search for the name "Gonzalo Boye Tusset" indicates that he's the Gonzalo Boye referenced in this article.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    From the September 4, 2003 edition of the Financial Times:

    CHILEAN ETA SUSPECT WANTED IN SPAIN GIVES HIMSELF UP IN CHILE



    A quick search for the name "Gonzalo Boye Tusset" indicates that he's the Gonzalo Boye referenced in this article.
    And? This guy served his time and is out. Your links provided no in depth information on what he was convicted off. From what I understand it was for "collaborating" with ETA, and that can mean a ton of things. There have been lawyers and people in Spain that have gone to jail for representing ETA terrorists at trials or in negotiations.

    That one of the lawyers in the case has in his past, been linked to ETA and been in prison for this link, does that mean that the whole case is "tainted" and can be brushed away? I know the US right will use it to do so, but they use any and all excuses to stick their head in the sand and shout "USA IS GREAT" 100000 times. But it does not change the reality of the situation.

    The Spanish right has been doing the "not us" excuse ever since the Madrid bombings and have lost election after election and are in the same infighting as the US Republican party. They are even spying on each other for god sake! And that too does not change the reality of the situation, that it was their former party leader and PM that totally fubared the situation of the Madrid bombings, to such an extent that they STILL have not recovered as a party from it.

    But that does not change the facts of the case put at hand. It is the same law and system that has brought brutal dictators like Pinochet to trial and investigations into many crimes against humanity... funny enough many by US backed right wing fascist dictatorships..

    But as usual I fully expect the US right with Rush Limburger and Bill "Hypocrite" O'Rielly and all their minions to slam this little fact so that they dont have to discuss the Bush administrations crimes in public.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And you expect O'Reilly to tell you the truth?

    Gonzalo Boye is one of several lawyers who filed the suit. So he aint "the attorney" behind the lawsuit. He is one of many.

    As for him collaborating with terrorists. Other than the usual right wing wacko sites promoting this little fact to cover up and blur out the facts the case, there is very little online evidence that it is true. In fact all the right wing sites have zero evidence to back up their claims.

    The only reference I could find is from El Mundo, a conservative Spanish newspaper. And this newspaper, along with the Conservatives in Spain have it "in" for anyone connected with the Madrid attacks and exposing the hypocrisy and stupidity of the Spanish right at the time. And guess where Mr. Boye has gained some fame in Spain?... working for the Madrid bombings victims against the Spanish Government and especially the former right wing government.. So one has to question the validity of the claim here also.

    So far, this just another right wing attempt to distort the facts and the issue in such a way that the no one will remember what the hell the whole issue is about.
    Read the posts #31 & #32 above and feel the burn.

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Or Spain imitates America and goes in and gets those 6 themselves. You act as if there's no chance of extradition.



    You act like spain has a pair.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Although I believe some of the legal interpretations offered by some of the Bush Administration officials in question were incorrect with respect to U.S. treaty obligations and I strongly disagree with some of the tactics employed, such realities do not justify foreign courts seeking to apply extraterritorial jurisdiction. Such efforts are nothing more than a violation of U.S. sovereignty.

    If there is merit to the allegations, they can be brought to the U.S. courts. Failing that, the ICJ is another appropriate forum. But that isn't the case. This is nothing short of another effort by which Spanish courts are seeking to develop a precedent that gives them wider authority that extends over the sovereign affairs of foreign states.

    Henry Kissinger once wrote of the dangers of such a doctrine, observing:

    Once extradition procedures are in train, they develop a momentum of their own. The accused is not allowed to challenge the substantive merit of the case and instead is confined to procedural issues: that there was, say, some technical flaw in the extradition request, that the judicial system of the requesting country is incapable of providing a fair hearing, or that the crime for which the extradition is sought is not treated as a crime in the country from which extradition has been requested -- thereby conceding much of the merit of the charge. Meanwhile, while these claims are being considered by the judicial system of the country from which extradition is sought, the accused remains in some form of detention, possibly for years. Such procedures provide an opportunity for political harassment long before the accused is in a position to present any defense. It would be ironic if a doctrine designed to transcend the political process turns into a means to pursue political enemies rather than universal justice.

    In the end, this latest episode of zeal from a Spanish court highlights a growing problem of abuse in which local Spanish courts have increasingly been seeking to transform themselves into global institutions--and without the consent of the people from whose countries they seek to drain sovereignty--while their judges seek to accumulate vast power that is tyrannical in nature. This latest effort again usurps due process by transforming political differences into legal matters, undermines representative government by asserting jurisdiction the people of the U.S. never gave them e.g., through the U.S. Constitution, and erodes international law, which is founded on the basis of sovereign states.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 03-31-09 at 08:39 AM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And? This guy served his time and is out. Your links provided no in depth information on what he was convicted off. From what I understand it was for "collaborating" with ETA, and that can mean a ton of things. There have been lawyers and people in Spain that have gone to jail for representing ETA terrorists at trials or in negotiations.
    Call me quaint, but I have this general rule of thumb that if someone spends years in prison on terrorism-related offenses, they're probably not the most credible of individuals.


    That one of the lawyers in the case has in his past, been linked to ETA and been in prison for this link, does that mean that the whole case is "tainted" and can be brushed away?
    Of course not. The case itself does a good enough job of that.

    I know the US right will use it to do so, but they use any and all excuses to stick their head in the sand and shout "USA IS GREAT" 100000 times. But it does not change the reality of the situation.
    Just keep knocking down those strawmen!

    The Spanish right has been doing the "not us" excuse ever since the Madrid bombings and have lost election after election and are in the same infighting as the US Republican party. They are even spying on each other for god sake! And that too does not change the reality of the situation, that it was their former party leader and PM that totally fubared the situation of the Madrid bombings, to such an extent that they STILL have not recovered as a party from it.
    Which is totally relevant to the discussion!

    But that does not change the facts of the case put at hand. It is the same law and system that has brought brutal dictators like Pinochet to trial and investigations into many crimes against humanity... funny enough many by US backed right wing fascist dictatorships..

    But as usual I fully expect the US right with Rush Limburger and Bill "Hypocrite" O'Rielly and all their minions to slam this little fact so that they dont have to discuss the Bush administrations crimes in public.
    Curious - Could you please explain how the fact that Spain's legal system managed to convict Pinochet is in any way indicative of their prospects for success on this matter? Thanks in advance.

    edit: If you'd like to see an example of how universal jurisdiction has played out in practice when individuals try to use it to do things that are not politically palatable, read up on Belgium's experience.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 03-31-09 at 08:47 AM.
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  8. #38
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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    What grounds do they have for these show trials?

    Bleeding heart liberalism? Spain can piss off. If they wanna waste time and money making fools of themselves, I say let em.

    [I"]The 98-page complaint is based on the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Convention Against Torture, which is binding on 145 countries, including Spain and the United States. Countries that are party to the torture convention have the authority to investigate torture cases, especially when a citizen has been abused."[/I]

    As signees to the Conventions, both Spain and the United States agreed to aggresively prosecute any instance of torture. Spain is simply living up to its commitment. The question is, why didn't the United States act first, before Spain?

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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    [I"]The 98-page complaint is based on the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Convention Against Torture, which is binding on 145 countries, including Spain and the United States. Countries that are party to the torture convention have the authority to investigate torture cases, especially when a citizen has been abused."[/I]

    As signees to the Conventions, both Spain and the United States agreed to aggresively prosecute any instance of torture. Spain is simply living up to its commitment. The question is, why didn't the United States act first, before Spain?


    Ah yes, another liberal who has no problem turning over the soveriegnty of this great nation to global socialists for thier party.....
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  10. #40
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    Re: Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    [I"]The 98-page complaint is based on the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Convention Against Torture, which is binding on 145 countries, including Spain and the United States. Countries that are party to the torture convention have the authority to investigate torture cases, especially when a citizen has been abused."[/I]

    As signees to the Conventions, both Spain and the United States agreed to aggresively prosecute any instance of torture. Spain is simply living up to its commitment. The question is, why didn't the United States act first, before Spain?
    Why would we "act" first? We acted in a perfectly legal manner in implementing enhanced interrogation techniques against individuals suspected of man caused disasters.
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