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Spain may open torture probe of six Bush officials

And you'd cheer it all the way.

Why would you accuse this?

I have never stated I am against Bush and I have placed many posts on the necessity to exterminate religious extremists

Actually I have argued with many friends about the need to keep rogue countries in check with WMD's!
 
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link

Spain has no jurisdiction here. It was not on their soil and Spain's rights are not being violated here. This is a matter for international courts, not a foreign municipal one. Nice try though, Spain.
I think all those listed should buy tickets to Spain and invite a media entourage.
All six at once and then watch the Spaniards.

They are indicting people that had given advice to Bush.
The guy bringing the suit spent 8 years in prison for being a terrorism enabler.

America was run for eight years by a criminal enterprise, the Bush crime family. Now we need to see to it that it never happens again.
What crimes?
Please list.

.
 
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Here's what this is all about in a nutshell. There's a certain small percent of the population in both the U.S. and Europe who are driven by a seething hatred of George W. Bush, his administration, his father, his wife, his children, and his dogs. Their hatred of all things Bush makes them single issue voters...

With Bush now a former president, these poor folks really don't have a clue what to do with all that pent up political rage. Bush is quietly jogging around Dallas and enjoying life, while Obama begins to ramp up for a 'surge' of his own in Afghanistan. The Bush-haters are confused, confounded, and in danger of losing their way. So a few of their buddies in Spain have given them some small glimmer of hope... and they'll play it for all its worth.

:2wave:

Agreed.

And I heard on O'Reilly that the attorney in Spain behind the legal action (Gonzalo Boye) served 8 years in prison for collaborating with terrorists.
 
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Agreed.

And I heard on O'Reilly that the attorney in Spain behind the legal action (Gonzalo Boye) served 8 years in prison for collaborating with terrorists.

And you expect O'Reilly to tell you the truth?

Gonzalo Boye is one of several lawyers who filed the suit. So he aint "the attorney" behind the lawsuit. He is one of many.

As for him collaborating with terrorists. Other than the usual right wing wacko sites promoting this little fact to cover up and blur out the facts the case, there is very little online evidence that it is true. In fact all the right wing sites have zero evidence to back up their claims.

The only reference I could find is from El Mundo, a conservative Spanish newspaper. And this newspaper, along with the Conservatives in Spain have it "in" for anyone connected with the Madrid attacks and exposing the hypocrisy and stupidity of the Spanish right at the time. And guess where Mr. Boye has gained some fame in Spain?... working for the Madrid bombings victims against the Spanish Government and especially the former right wing government.. So one has to question the validity of the claim here also.

So far, this just another right wing attempt to distort the facts and the issue in such a way that the no one will remember what the hell the whole issue is about.
 
Hmmm, this may turn out quite interesting...

I have a feeling that more countries may follow suit.

This could begin to snowball for a bad deal for america

Not really.

Or Spain imitates America and goes in and gets those 6 themselves. You act as if there's no chance of extradition.

There's not.

Irrelevant. Spaniard citizens. Are you arguing that Spain does not have jurisdiction on it's own citizens?

If you're vacationing in Mexico and a mexican national punches you in the face, a US prosecutor can't go get him from mexico and bring him back here to face trial.
 
And you expect O'Reilly to tell you the truth?

Gonzalo Boye is one of several lawyers who filed the suit. So he aint "the attorney" behind the lawsuit. He is one of many.

As for him collaborating with terrorists. Other than the usual right wing wacko sites promoting this little fact to cover up and blur out the facts the case, there is very little online evidence that it is true. In fact all the right wing sites have zero evidence to back up their claims.

The only reference I could find is from El Mundo, a conservative Spanish newspaper. And this newspaper, along with the Conservatives in Spain have it "in" for anyone connected with the Madrid attacks and exposing the hypocrisy and stupidity of the Spanish right at the time. And guess where Mr. Boye has gained some fame in Spain?... working for the Madrid bombings victims against the Spanish Government and especially the former right wing government.. So one has to question the validity of the claim here also.

So far, this just another right wing attempt to distort the facts and the issue in such a way that the no one will remember what the hell the whole issue is about.

So who is the heroic “human-rights” activist behind the effort to criminalize the provision of legal advice to America’s commander-in-chief? The complaint was filed by one Gonzalo Boye, whom the New York Times charitably describes as a “Madrid lawyer.” Unmentioned is how Boye came to be a Madrid lawyer. He obtained his law degree in a Spanish prison. According to reports in the Spanish press (read here), Boye, a Chilean, was a member of the terrorist Revolutionary Left Movement (MIR) when, in collusion with the ETA, Spain’s Marxist-Leninist Basque terrorist outfit, he participated in the abduction of a Spanish businessman, Emiliano Revilla.

Spain’s ‘Universal Jurisdiction’ Power Play by Andrew C. McCarthy on National Review Online

If you've got any evidence that this isn't true, I'd like to see it.
 
From the September 4, 2003 edition of the Financial Times:

CHILEAN ETA SUSPECT WANTED IN SPAIN GIVES HIMSELF UP IN CHILE

Chilean national Ramiro Silva Vial, who is accused in Spain of having taken part in the kidnapping by ETA of businessman Emiliano Revilla in 1988, gave himself up to the courts of his own free will yesterday. Silva, a former member of the Movement of the Revolutionary Left (MIR), reported to the police accompanied by his lawyer, Pablo Gatica, and was immediately handed over to Supreme Court judge Hernan Alvarez, who is in charge of the case.

In June the highest Chilean court agreed to process the application for the extradition of Silva, whom the Spanish courts accuse of belonging to a terrorist band, unlawful possession of weapons and explosives and having forged papers.

Ramiro Silva collaborated along with other members of the MIR - a group which engaged in armed resistance to the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet - in the kidnapping of Emiliano Revilla, who was held by ETA for eight months in 1988, Efe reports.

According to legal sources, the former member of MIR carried out guard duties during the kidnapping with other members of the Chilean group which collaborated with the Basque terrorist band.

Three other Chileans, Alexis Corbalan Munoz, Rene Valenzuela Bejas and Gonzalo Boye Tusset, served prison sentences in Spain and are currently at liberty, but Silva escaped during the proceedings, when he was out on bail.

A quick search for the name "Gonzalo Boye Tusset" indicates that he's the Gonzalo Boye referenced in this article.
 
From the September 4, 2003 edition of the Financial Times:

CHILEAN ETA SUSPECT WANTED IN SPAIN GIVES HIMSELF UP IN CHILE



A quick search for the name "Gonzalo Boye Tusset" indicates that he's the Gonzalo Boye referenced in this article.

And? This guy served his time and is out. Your links provided no in depth information on what he was convicted off. From what I understand it was for "collaborating" with ETA, and that can mean a ton of things. There have been lawyers and people in Spain that have gone to jail for representing ETA terrorists at trials or in negotiations.

That one of the lawyers in the case has in his past, been linked to ETA and been in prison for this link, does that mean that the whole case is "tainted" and can be brushed away? I know the US right will use it to do so, but they use any and all excuses to stick their head in the sand and shout "USA IS GREAT" 100000 times. But it does not change the reality of the situation.

The Spanish right has been doing the "not us" excuse ever since the Madrid bombings and have lost election after election and are in the same infighting as the US Republican party. They are even spying on each other for god sake! And that too does not change the reality of the situation, that it was their former party leader and PM that totally fubared the situation of the Madrid bombings, to such an extent that they STILL have not recovered as a party from it.

But that does not change the facts of the case put at hand. It is the same law and system that has brought brutal dictators like Pinochet to trial and investigations into many crimes against humanity... funny enough many by US backed right wing fascist dictatorships..

But as usual I fully expect the US right with Rush Limburger and Bill "Hypocrite" O'Rielly and all their minions to slam this little fact so that they dont have to discuss the Bush administrations crimes in public.
 
And you expect O'Reilly to tell you the truth?

Gonzalo Boye is one of several lawyers who filed the suit. So he aint "the attorney" behind the lawsuit. He is one of many.

As for him collaborating with terrorists. Other than the usual right wing wacko sites promoting this little fact to cover up and blur out the facts the case, there is very little online evidence that it is true. In fact all the right wing sites have zero evidence to back up their claims.

The only reference I could find is from El Mundo, a conservative Spanish newspaper. And this newspaper, along with the Conservatives in Spain have it "in" for anyone connected with the Madrid attacks and exposing the hypocrisy and stupidity of the Spanish right at the time. And guess where Mr. Boye has gained some fame in Spain?... working for the Madrid bombings victims against the Spanish Government and especially the former right wing government.. So one has to question the validity of the claim here also.

So far, this just another right wing attempt to distort the facts and the issue in such a way that the no one will remember what the hell the whole issue is about.

Read the posts #31 & #32 above and feel the burn. :mrgreen:
 
Although I believe some of the legal interpretations offered by some of the Bush Administration officials in question were incorrect with respect to U.S. treaty obligations and I strongly disagree with some of the tactics employed, such realities do not justify foreign courts seeking to apply extraterritorial jurisdiction. Such efforts are nothing more than a violation of U.S. sovereignty.

If there is merit to the allegations, they can be brought to the U.S. courts. Failing that, the ICJ is another appropriate forum. But that isn't the case. This is nothing short of another effort by which Spanish courts are seeking to develop a precedent that gives them wider authority that extends over the sovereign affairs of foreign states.

Henry Kissinger once wrote of the dangers of such a doctrine, observing:

Once extradition procedures are in train, they develop a momentum of their own. The accused is not allowed to challenge the substantive merit of the case and instead is confined to procedural issues: that there was, say, some technical flaw in the extradition request, that the judicial system of the requesting country is incapable of providing a fair hearing, or that the crime for which the extradition is sought is not treated as a crime in the country from which extradition has been requested -- thereby conceding much of the merit of the charge. Meanwhile, while these claims are being considered by the judicial system of the country from which extradition is sought, the accused remains in some form of detention, possibly for years. Such procedures provide an opportunity for political harassment long before the accused is in a position to present any defense. It would be ironic if a doctrine designed to transcend the political process turns into a means to pursue political enemies rather than universal justice.

In the end, this latest episode of zeal from a Spanish court highlights a growing problem of abuse in which local Spanish courts have increasingly been seeking to transform themselves into global institutions--and without the consent of the people from whose countries they seek to drain sovereignty--while their judges seek to accumulate vast power that is tyrannical in nature. This latest effort again usurps due process by transforming political differences into legal matters, undermines representative government by asserting jurisdiction the people of the U.S. never gave them e.g., through the U.S. Constitution, and erodes international law, which is founded on the basis of sovereign states.
 
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And? This guy served his time and is out. Your links provided no in depth information on what he was convicted off. From what I understand it was for "collaborating" with ETA, and that can mean a ton of things. There have been lawyers and people in Spain that have gone to jail for representing ETA terrorists at trials or in negotiations.

Call me quaint, but I have this general rule of thumb that if someone spends years in prison on terrorism-related offenses, they're probably not the most credible of individuals.


That one of the lawyers in the case has in his past, been linked to ETA and been in prison for this link, does that mean that the whole case is "tainted" and can be brushed away?

Of course not. The case itself does a good enough job of that.

I know the US right will use it to do so, but they use any and all excuses to stick their head in the sand and shout "USA IS GREAT" 100000 times. But it does not change the reality of the situation.

Just keep knocking down those strawmen!

The Spanish right has been doing the "not us" excuse ever since the Madrid bombings and have lost election after election and are in the same infighting as the US Republican party. They are even spying on each other for god sake! And that too does not change the reality of the situation, that it was their former party leader and PM that totally fubared the situation of the Madrid bombings, to such an extent that they STILL have not recovered as a party from it.

Which is totally relevant to the discussion!

But that does not change the facts of the case put at hand. It is the same law and system that has brought brutal dictators like Pinochet to trial and investigations into many crimes against humanity... funny enough many by US backed right wing fascist dictatorships..

But as usual I fully expect the US right with Rush Limburger and Bill "Hypocrite" O'Rielly and all their minions to slam this little fact so that they dont have to discuss the Bush administrations crimes in public.

Curious - Could you please explain how the fact that Spain's legal system managed to convict Pinochet is in any way indicative of their prospects for success on this matter? Thanks in advance.

edit: If you'd like to see an example of how universal jurisdiction has played out in practice when individuals try to use it to do things that are not politically palatable, read up on Belgium's experience.
 
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What grounds do they have for these show trials?

Bleeding heart liberalism? Spain can piss off. If they wanna waste time and money making fools of themselves, I say let em.


[I"]The 98-page complaint is based on the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Convention Against Torture, which is binding on 145 countries, including Spain and the United States. Countries that are party to the torture convention have the authority to investigate torture cases, especially when a citizen has been abused."[/I]

As signees to the Conventions, both Spain and the United States agreed to aggresively prosecute any instance of torture. Spain is simply living up to its commitment. The question is, why didn't the United States act first, before Spain?
 
[I"]The 98-page complaint is based on the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Convention Against Torture, which is binding on 145 countries, including Spain and the United States. Countries that are party to the torture convention have the authority to investigate torture cases, especially when a citizen has been abused."[/I]

As signees to the Conventions, both Spain and the United States agreed to aggresively prosecute any instance of torture. Spain is simply living up to its commitment. The question is, why didn't the United States act first, before Spain?



Ah yes, another liberal who has no problem turning over the soveriegnty of this great nation to global socialists for thier party..... :roll:
 
[I"]The 98-page complaint is based on the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Convention Against Torture, which is binding on 145 countries, including Spain and the United States. Countries that are party to the torture convention have the authority to investigate torture cases, especially when a citizen has been abused."[/I]

As signees to the Conventions, both Spain and the United States agreed to aggresively prosecute any instance of torture. Spain is simply living up to its commitment. The question is, why didn't the United States act first, before Spain?

Why would we "act" first? We acted in a perfectly legal manner in implementing enhanced interrogation techniques against individuals suspected of man caused disasters.
 
It should also be noted that the people named in this action simply advised the POTUS.
 
[I"]The 98-page complaint is based on the Geneva Conventions and the 1984 Convention Against Torture, which is binding on 145 countries, including Spain and the United States. Countries that are party to the torture convention have the authority to investigate torture cases, especially when a citizen has been abused."[/I]

As signees to the Conventions, both Spain and the United States agreed to aggresively prosecute any instance of torture. Spain is simply living up to its commitment. The question is, why didn't the United States act first, before Spain?

This claim is based on allegations of torture at Guantanamo. A report conducted by the Obama Administration concluded that nothing at Guantanamo violated the Geneva Convention.

Why would we prosecute something that we concluded didn't happen? Or are you calling Obama a liar?
 
This claim is based on allegations of torture at Guantanamo. A report conducted by the Obama Administration concluded that nothing at Guantanamo violated the Geneva Convention.

Why would we prosecute something that we concluded didn't happen? Or are you calling Obama a liar?

The U.S. has a highly competent legal system. If there were credible and sufficient evidence, legal cases would have a chance at success in the U.S. judicial system. The allegations likely are far more politically-motivated than credible. Hence, those making the allegations are using a foreign court system--one with a sordid history of attempting to carve out extraterritorial jurisdiction for itself--to proceed with a politically-motivated case.

It is unfortunate that some, who are unable to accept the limits of their political allegations, go shopping for courts in a bid to contrive a sense of legitimacy for their charges that would be unlikely to stand the scrutiny of a rigorous judicial process. It is even worse that some foreign judges choose to participate in such a political process, even as they lack jurisdiction.
 
The U.S. has a highly competent legal system.

Sure...Tell that to the falsely convicted and the victims of O.J.Simpson and so on. The US legal system can be corrupted like any other... by money and political pressure and lately by religious radicals on the right.

If there were credible and sufficient evidence, legal cases would have a chance at success in the U.S. judicial system.

No. Several reasons.

1. The US government at the time would have claimed everything from national security to it happening outside the jurisdiction of the court to prevent or/and delay any investigation or trial..... no wait they already did that for 5+ years. I am also sure that the Obama administration would use the same tactic since the political ramifications could play right into the hands of the enemy... however that does not make it right or justify the actions of the Bush administration.

2. The US government has not allowed access to Gitmo by any 3rd party other than the Red Cross. The Red Cross have even had their access limited. Hence any evidence would have to come from the US government... yea right in a pigs eye. Considering that the CIA has destroyed interrogation tapes, that hundreds of thousands of emails "disappeared" from the White House and all the other "funny facts" about the Bush administration then well.

Like it or not, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that the US government with Bush and his minions not only were complicit but actually promoted the torture of person's they saw as a threat. We have Rumsfeldt admitting to giving the order to the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" and the Bush memos by the DOJ attempting to justify the use of torture. We have person after person coming forward claiming on being kidnapped and tortured by the US administration, and we have the deaths of detainees. So yes when there is smoke there is usually a fire too.

The allegations likely are far more politically-motivated than credible.

Considering the subject, then yes it is politically motivated. Anything involving the Bush administration is politically motivated as there was no accountability during the reign of Fuhrer Bush. But it is also very much motivated by the facts and evidence and wanting to punish the people who were not held accountable during their reign of terror .. I mean their administration.

Hence, those making the allegations are using a foreign court system--one with a sordid history of attempting to carve out extraterritorial jurisdiction for itself--to proceed with a politically-motivated case.

It is funny that the Spanish court system has prosecuted more of these cases than anyone else. It took the Spanish court system to put Pinochet on trial. It took the Spanish court system to put the facist right wing murders of Argentina on trial. At least there is some systems that believe in the rule of law and going after mass murders. That is more than the US system does.

It is unfortunate that some, who are unable to accept the limits of their political allegations, go shopping for courts in a bid to contrive a sense of legitimacy for their charges that would be unlikely to stand the scrutiny of a rigorous judicial process.

And when the US court system demands the extradition of nationals of other nations because of charges pending in the US? I guess that is okay?

As for standing the scrutiny of a rigorous judicial process..... I guess you have no clue on the history of this court and what it has done. This court took up the Pinochet case, and because of this court, Pinochet was arrested in London on request of the Spanish court system. Because of this court case, Pinochet had his immunity finally removed not long before his death. This alone was a triumph and kept the crimes of the US backed Pinochet regime in Chile in the lime light.

Thanks to this Spanish law, Adolfo Scilingo was put on trial and sentenced to 540 years for his part in the Argentinian dirty war.

How many war criminals has the US courts convicted lately?

It is even worse that some foreign judges choose to participate in such a political process, even as they lack jurisdiction.

They have no choice, it is the law. Its called Universal Jurisdiction. I am guessing you are against such a thing.

Then you are against Israel, because Israel has used this justification to apprehend and try Nazi war criminals.. are you an anti semitic jew hater?!?! (yes that is ironic and sarcastic)

Several countries have Universal Jurisdiction and they are mostly used in cases of crimes against humanity and war crimes. These countries include, UK, Canada, France, Belgium, Israel and Spain.

In fact... the US has Universal Jurisdiction too... well kind off. Since the US has taken Afghanis that attacked US troops and put them in Gitmo on "terror charges" and plan to put them on trial... then the US are prosecuting non nationals for supposed crimes committed in their home country against the US. But I guess you have no problem with that right?
 
Sure...Tell that to the falsely convicted and the victims of O.J.Simpson and so on. The US legal system can be corrupted like any other... by money and political pressure and lately by religious radicals on the right.

A "highly competent" legal system is not the same thing as a perfect one. There is no perfect legal system anywhere. Perfection is beyond the grasp of any individual or any human institution. No matter how rigorous the evidentiary process might be or how independent a court system might be from outside influences, there is always the chance of a bad outcome. The O.J. Simpson murder case is but one example.

However, recognizing the existence of error, the U.S. legal system--and many elsewhere--is built on a principle of a presumption of innocence. Persons need to be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, not the other way around. Society is more willing to accept that a guilty person goes free than an innocent person is wrongfully convicted.

Nonetheless, for all the safeguards and the principle of a presumption of innocence, the latter outcome is not unknown. Recent cases in which DNA evidence exonerated persons convicted of murder highlight that kind of outcome (and they form a powerful case against capital punishment, given that the sentence, once carried out, is irreversible).

And when the US court system demands the extradition of nationals of other nations because of charges pending in the US? I guess that is okay?

If an individual committed a crime in the U.S. and then fled abroad, it is appropriate. If not, I oppose efforts to apply extraterritorial jurisdiction.
 
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And with that, the tattered shreds of your credibility exploded into thin air.

Well exactly! And that post couldn't be a more perfect example of how I summed this up several days ago... and deserves repeating:

Here's what this is all about in a nutshell. There's a certain small percent of the population in both the U.S. and Europe who are driven by a seething hatred of George W. Bush, his administration, his father, his wife, his children, and his dogs...

:2wave:
 
The same group pushing this have been pushing it for years.

Started in the USA and failed.
Moved to the UK and failed. Moved to Germany and Failed,,Moved to France and Failed...now they are in Spain. I think they tried in Austria and the Low Countries as well. Just do an internet search you will find stuff.

Its sign wavers who somehow got diplomas.
 
A "highly competent" legal system is not the same thing as a perfect one. There is no perfect legal system anywhere. Perfection is beyond the grasp of any individual or any human institution. No matter how rigorous the evidentiary process might be or how independent a court system might be from outside influences, there is always the chance of a bad outcome. The O.J. Simpson murder case is but one example.

However, recognizing the existence of error, the U.S. legal system--and many elsewhere--is built on a principle of a presumption of innocence. Persons need to be proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, not the other way around. Society is more willing to accept that a guilty person goes free than an innocent person is wrongfully convicted.

Nonetheless, for all the safeguards and the principle of a presumption of innocence, the latter outcome is not unknown. Recent cases in which DNA evidence exonerated persons convicted of murder highlight that kind of outcome (and they form a powerful case against capital punishment, given that the sentence, once carried out, is irreversible).

Then why are you demeaning the Spanish legal system? Or do you really think that only the US legal system is worthy of your "praise" and all others are not up to grade?

If an individual committed a crime in the U.S. and then fled abroad, it is appropriate. If not, I oppose efforts to apply extraterritorial jurisdiction.

Good to hear, but sadly that is not the case of the US government.
 
And with that, the tattered shreds of your credibility exploded into thin air.

Hardly, the US conservative movement has been treating him like it so why not call him that? Defending torture, kidnappings, murder and removal of basic rights of Americans... defending every word and action he has ever done. That sounds like blind devotion like the German people did with Hitler. So the comparison is valid.
 
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