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Thread: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    not like heroin and meth are good for the soul, so to speak
    when it is easily accessible, and the 'illegal stigma' is taken away, I see a surge in use
    more users increase the likelihood of more people dying from the drug, be it directly (OD) or indirectly (long term use affects)
    that is what i am thinking about
    How can you back that up? I know that if Meth became legal, I would still go nowhere near it. As I have stated in other threads, alcohol consumption increased during prohibition. Liver cirrhosis increased. Crime increased. Children abusing alcohol doubled and they started drinking at a younger age.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    Ahh but in these cases they are not dying regardless There is a cause of death be it lung cancer, liver failure, or the propensity to seek out bad black tar(Good will kill you just as dead).

    Examples of lives cut short by a created situation. A situation that could be avoided such as smoking.
    Right, but people are dying from Prozac. There is a study going on right now that has evidence suggesting Viagra can cause blindness. Legal does not equal "good for you", as some may think.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    How can you back that up? I know that if Meth became legal, I would still go nowhere near it. As I have stated in other threads, alcohol consumption increased during prohibition. Liver cirrhosis increased. Crime increased. Children abusing alcohol doubled and they started drinking at a younger age.
    considering i said "i see a surge in use" that would mean i intended it to be my opinion.
    but if you can back up your assertion, or show me where you already have, i would be willing to reverse position

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    considering i said "i see a surge in use" that would mean i intended it to be my opinion.
    but if you can back up your assertion, or show me where you already have, i would be willing to reverse position
    I only have prohibition to work with:

    Alcohol Prohibition Was a Failure

    Did Alcohol Prohibition Reduce Alcohol Consumption And Crime?
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    considering i said "i see a surge in use" that would mean i intended it to be my opinion.
    but if you can back up your assertion, or show me where you already have, i would be willing to reverse position
    Why would a surge in usage make sense? Most people still know that heroin and speed and cocaine can kill you. It's not like legalizing all drugs is going to remove the stigma from them.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    considering i said "i see a surge in use" that would mean i intended it to be my opinion.
    but if you can back up your assertion, or show me where you already have, i would be willing to reverse position
    I'll back up the children drinking part during prohibition, as I've heard it from numerous sources before. I can look for one if needed, but let me just use the logical argument, which is the basis for the reality:

    Think of it this way, when prohibition was happening, serving alcohol to anyone was a crime, so the only people doing it were criminals. There was no form of punishment for serving alcohol to minors that was greater than the punishment for serving alcohol in general. Thus, serving a 16 year old a beer = serving 31 year old a beer in the eyes of the law. So there was no impetus to prevent people form serving alcohol to minors.

    Nowadays, serving beer to 31 year old is not punishable by law, but serving beer to a 16 year old is. Thus, laws curb the practice of serving alcohol to minors because one who wants to sustain his livelihood must take precautions against serving minors or else he will lose his ability to serve 31 year-olds.

    If one is willing to commit a crime that was severely punished for money, then one typically will not make a moral distinction on who they should break the law for.

    The same is true with drug dealers. There is no reason for them to deny themselves the income that can be generated from servicing minors because it adds no extra threat to the income that can be generated by serving adults, which contains as much, or even MORE of a threat to their income (Undercover agents aren't 12). If it is legalized and treated like alcohol, then denying themselves the income generated by servicing a minor would prevent a possible cessation of the income that can be generated by servicing adults.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 03-26-09 at 02:28 PM.

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    I knew you were just pulling **** out of thin air
    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Why would a surge in usage make sense? Most people still know that heroin and speed and cocaine can kill you. It's not like legalizing all drugs is going to remove the stigma from them.
    because now people can 'rest assured' of a consistant quality to the drug without harmful 'cuts'
    most people are willing to experiment. and It seems to me that more people would be willing to go to teh local head shop to try a drug they wouldn't dare try if they had to go to the Ghetto or a crack house to score

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    If we are still in a war on drugs why don't we withdraw? We had more sense about the War in Viet Nam, we are someday going to withdraw from Iraq so what are we waiting for?
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJayH View Post
    considering i said "i see a surge in use" that would mean i intended it to be my opinion.
    but if you can back up your assertion, or show me where you already have, i would be willing to reverse position
    We cannot really look at models of legalization to support this argument. There is data that suggests heroin use has been fairly constant for the last 100 years, both prior to and after prohibition however; the methodology in collecting data and assessing data is almost certainly subject to inconsistencies over the years, we can look at current day instances of toleration, and decriminalization however.

    Our best model currently is Portugal's decriminalization of drugs (including heroin, cocaine, ect). The Cato Institute conducted a study of the effects of Portugal's 8 year old decriminalization policy, unfortunately it has not been released yet, the paper will be presented at a forum at the Cato Institute on April 3rd.

    The author has published the following in regards to the paper however:

    Last year, working with the Cato Institute, I went to that country in order to research the effects of the decriminalization law (which applies to all substances, including cocaine and heroin) and to interview both Portuguese and EU drug policy officials and analysts (the central EU drug policy monitoring agency is, by coincidence, based in Lisbon). Evaluating the policy strictly from an empirical perspective, decriminalization has been an unquestionable success, leading to improvements in virtually every relevant category and enabling Portugal to manage drug-related problems (and drug usage rates) far better than most Western nations that continue to treat adult drug consumption as a criminal offense.
    The success of drug decriminalization in Portugal - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

    Also another report from the Berkeley foundation (PDF) shows Portugal has shown a decrease in Heroin use since decriminalization. A snippet from the conclusion of this report:

    ... the adoption of decriminalization has brought definite advantages, particularly for addressing and reducing problematic drug use
    The data from this report does show a decrease in Heroin use (granted marijuana use increased). Significantly, in 1999 prior to decriminalization there were 350 opiate related deaths, compared to 98 for 2003, 2 years after decriminalization.

    A quick search using google and the terms "Portugal decriminalization" will provide a slew of links referencing their success with their tolerant policy.

    Also the Swiss have had success in their government distribution system focusing on treatment instead of prosecution and persecution (although only hardcore addicts have access to it freely distributed heroin). The dutch, -while hard drugs are still illegal- also have had a decline in usage after tolerant policies have gone into effect.

    If these experiments are an indication, a legal, but controlled distribution, coupled with education and treatment is most likely to result in a decrease of drug use, most prevalently in hard drug use. Those that do use will be able to do so in much safer conditions, and have help and access readily available to them instead of ostracism, fear of legal repercussions, and other adverse effects inherent with our current stance of demonization and zero tolerance.

    99% of the population will continue to not be compelled to try heroin, cocaine, meth ect. simply because it is legalized. The 1% that do try it should have the support and ability to readily get treatment and help should their usage in fact become problematic (only 25% of people who use heroin actually become dependent). Even if an individual were to develop a problem, the inherent risks involved with appeasing their needs via a black market would be eliminated. They will be able to do satiate their addiction in a much safer environment, one with a safety net of care and treatment available without fear of repercussions if needed (via taxation of the very drugs they are abusing).

    On the subject of alcohol and increased youth usage during prohibition, I had dug this up for another thread on this subject:

    The Wickersham report on Alcohol Prohibition (1931)
    Among the significant findings of this report were:

    * Alcohol use declined during the first two or three years of Prohibition (a trend that had begun before Prohibition started) but rose every year thereafter. There was, in particular, an increase in the use of distilled liquors. There was also evidence of increased alcohol use and addiction among minors.
    Major Studies of Drugs and Drug Policy - Titles and Summaries
    Last edited by marduc; 03-26-09 at 04:09 PM.

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    Re: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Perhaps we should argue against rock climbing, white water rafting, skydiving, surfing and skiing as well.
    Does any of that involve illegal activity and/or injecting/ingesting foreign substances into your body?
    Thank you

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