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Thread: Specter changes mind on Employee Free Choice Act

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    Re: Specter changes mind on Employee Free Choice Act

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    The EFCA does not end the secret ballot, it offers it as a choice. The AFLCIO endorses this act, Republicans are against it because they are anti-union, they are using the "secret ballot" argument as an excuse to oppose the legislation.
    Absolutely right, sir. Secret ballots are the bane of a free society.

    Why I mean, they can vote for anyone if no one knows how they vote. How can the country survive if the union bosses don't know who to punish for getting out of line?

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    Re: Specter changes mind on Employee Free Choice Act

    Seems not, once you think it through....

    "The essential change of the EFCA would be to allow the employees—rather than the employer—to decide whether to hold a secret-ballot election. If at least half of the work force signed cards saying it wanted a union, there would be a union—without the rigmarole of a full-blown election."

    So the uniongoons (union doesn't exist as a distinct word when discussing labor - there's nothing civil about them) will have the cards listing the names of all the people who wanted the uniongoons in charge....and it will thus know the names of all the people who didn't want the uniongoons in place.

    You can't see the fun potentialities for intimidation when the uniongoons have only 30% of the cards they need? No. Come on, you're just pretending you can't see that. Guaranteed that the uniongoons will be slashing tires, smashing windows, killing cats, phoning at 0300, scaring the kids...all the fun things the uniongoons do all the time to get their way.

    So clearly EFCA is merely a road for the uniongoons to regain some needed intimidation traction to restore their sagging numbers.

    Secret ballots...it's the American way for a reason.

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    Re: Specter changes mind on Employee Free Choice Act

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Present "their side" of the story? And what is that exactly? You sound like an employer or conservative pro business person
    Pro-business, yes. Conservative, not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    "Pst dont join a union because they we cant take you from behind time and time again during wage negotiations... oh btw if you do join, then you are fired.." and all that.
    It is already ILLEGAL for management to threaten to fire someone if they vote to join a union.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    Give me a freaking break. Management has no side. They do not want unions period so they are in a direct conflict of interest and should not be involved at all.
    Of course they have a side. If this bill passes, then unions will be allowed to approach workers anywhere (including outside of work) to tell them how wonderful the union is, while management will have no opportunity at all to present their views.

    The whole point of an election is for people to make a democratic choice between two alternatives. If your attitude towards elections are "the people I disagree with have no side and shouldn't be involved at all," then you are no democrat.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    This is a personal call by the worker and he or she should not be intimidated by anyone, union or employer.
    That situation already exists, that's the whole point of a secret ballot. This ELIMINATES the secret ballot, which means that the unions CAN intimidate the worker. If a union official passes out union cards and tells people to sign them in front of all their colleagues, that is NOT a free choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    Sorry but that is simply not true.

    While I would agree that some unions are like politicians, they are in it for themselves and they are corrupt, the idea of a union is a very sound and beneficial thing, just like having politicians is a sound thing.
    Unions are a monopoly of labor, and are no different than any other monopoly. They charge people uncompetitive prices for a crappier product simply because the customers (employers) don't have any other alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    It is unions that have given health and safety in the work place for one, not to mention the wage aspect. Dont think for a second employers would have done that on their own... we are talking about the same people who sent children into mines and used children in large factories inside machines because they were "small".
    Of course we would've got there on our own without unions. Every nation goes through a sweatshop phase when it's developing. And every nation outgrows it once their economy is large enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    I fully understand the distrust of unions, because I actually agree in many ways that some people in some unions are corrupt and in it for themselves and I in no way agree with the "tough recruiting" methods some unions have. However that does not change the fact that it is up the individual employee and not the employer to join a union or not.
    If it's up to the employees, then you should be against a policy that will eliminate the secret ballot election and subject them to union intimidation.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-25-09 at 09:13 PM.
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    Re: Specter changes mind on Employee Free Choice Act

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    This is a personal call by the worker and he or she should not be intimidated by anyone, union or employer.
    Exactly.

    Card check opens the employee to be victimized by the uniongoons if he refuses to sign.

    Secret ballots protect the employee from that intimidation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    All I can see this change will do is take away the power of employers to delay and block the unionisation of the work place.
    How? If more than 30% have signed cards saying they want an election, and the election happens, what's the deal, that the election might not be favorable to the union because it couldn't intimidate people who are voting on secret ballots?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And you are complaining about free choice and back the present legislation that actually makes it hard to unionise a work place? Give me a break.
    It's not hard to unionize the workplace, except that with secret ballots is hard to intimidate the workers into joining a mob.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And so what? Free choice after all.. That is the whole point. It is the choice of the individual to be a member of a union and whatever union you want.
    Sure is. All they have to do is vote on a secret ballot, thus protecting the anonymity of those co-workers who don't agree with them.

    Where's the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Hell in the "socialist Europe" I have tons of unions to choose from and guess what.. I choose not to join one, and it did not effect my employment. Now that is free choice. And yes the union representatives were pissed for a while, but nothing that a few beers after work did not fix.
    Welcome to America, where the unions are all well connected with organized crime and the Democrat party, both well known for their exuberant retaliatory policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    While I would agree that some unions are like politicians, they are in it for themselves and they are corrupt, the idea of a union is a very sound and beneficial thing, just like having politicians is a sound thing.
    Theoretically....but in this country unions have an unofficial but real monopoly on the use of violence. Unions and collective bargaining actually make it easier in some respects for employers to set wages, no doubt about that, they only have to negotiate with one group. But....employers own the company, and should not be denied their freedom to permanently dismiss any and all employees who will not work....even if that "will not work" is called a "strike".

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It is unions that have given health and safety in the work place for one, not to mention the wage aspect. Dont think for a second employers would have done that on their own...
    I wouldn't dream of believing that. After all, all companies can afford to throw away highly trained staff and just order up some more from the temp-place. They're nothing but cogs in a machine, right? Anyone, right off the street, can run a mill and turn out quality parts, no point in wasting company money on safety, right? There's no investment in a skilled staff.

    Only the mother unions managed to create the wonderful workplaces we see today...

    ...except that the most dangerous places I've worked in were union dominated factories and shipyards, and the private non-unionized companies were more safety conscious because it cost them money to replace workers.

    Workplace safety improved as the needed worker skills became more specialized and scarce.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    we are talking about the same people who sent children into mines and used children in large factories inside machines because they were "small".
    Yeah. Those kids didn't have any parents who cared about them, right? It was just the evil "bosses", and not the evil children selling their children into those jobs.

    Damn if that ain't just like blaming the european slave trader for hauling negros out of africa and pretending those slaves weren't sold by their own parents and families.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The whole reason we have unions today (and socialism) is because of greed and the lack of respect for workers by the employers and their political allies (aka the conservative movement).
    And the whole reason General Motors needed to take money from the government is that its been destroyed by it's unions, yet non-union companies, and non-union employees have been doing increasingly better for the last six decades, to the point where most people scorn union work as inferior and overpriced.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And all I can see in this change is that, it makes it easier for a work force to unionise, something that was quite hard before.
    There's no need to make it easier for workforces to unionize, the process is sufficiently open and accessible as it is. There's certainly no reason to end the secret ballot and thereby make people subject to union intimidation.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 03-25-09 at 09:29 PM.

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    Re: Specter changes mind on Employee Free Choice Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post

    There's no need to make it easier for workforces to unionize, the process is sufficiently open and accessible as it is. There's certainly no reason to end the secret ballot and thereby make people subject to union intimidation.
    QFT.

    Now, employees say, the forced choice has turned friend into foe, causing some employees to be threatened by coworkers who had wanted the union.

    One employee said she was threatened for her choice.

    "I have my reasons for the way that I voted. That's nobody else's business, and had it not been for the card check, nobody would know if I was for or against," said Beverly Musolf.

    The UAW declined to give comment to FOX News on the employees' complaints.


    Card Check Process Used by Union Organizers Ignites Fury at Indiana Plant - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com
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    Re: Specter changes mind on Employee Free Choice Act

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Sorry but that says nothing other than "SHOCK" the Republican's are against something that benefits unions.
    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    The EFCA does not end the secret ballot, it offers it as a choice. The AFLCIO endorses this act, Republicans are against it because they are anti-union, they are using the "secret ballot" argument as an excuse to oppose the legislation.
    I find it amusing that Im being accused of being anti-union. Im usually one of the few non-liberals on this board who defends unions. Ending the secret ballot is a horrible idea bar none.
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