• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Marine recruiting station under attack... again

Please prove that pre-2004 Iraq was a threat to American freedoms.

This has nothing to do with the fact marines recruit, are you trying to argue that the military stops recruiting and that there are no standing armies when there are no wars. These scum who target recruiting stations are ungrateful pieces of ****.
 
Last edited:
Why does it matter, we are there now. We started that mess, now we have to clean it up.

Argue all you want before the war, and after the war is over. But when we are in a conflict shut up and support our solders.

Hell, i am no fan of the way the Iraq war sttarted or turned out. I am sure once we are out there will be many studies about how it was wrong and the many mistakes that were made.

Idiotic at best, horribly unpatriotic at worst. Stamp out dissent against the government....because we are at war!!?? Do you take 1984 as a playbook? It was meant as warning. The war in Iraq was unjust, not only did Iraq have nothing to do with 9/11 they posed no threat to the United States. Furthermore, our government was never granted the ability to "spread democracy". Not our goal, other people can have whatever form of government they want so long as they do not threaten or attack the sovereignty of the People.

You don't hold off dissent when something bad is going down. If it's bad, then it's bad and needs to stop. Shut up and support the troops....it's America and I can say as I want. And why does support of the troops only come through support of the war? I don't want to sacrifice American soldiers for things which are not American freedom and liberty. The commitment they have made to this country can not be taken lightly and must be respected. Thus we should only use our military for just means, to do otherwise is an insult.

We broke it, we buy it...that's bull****. We've busted lots of things and then gotten the hell out of dodge. If the government is acting improperly, you don't sit and wait for them to finish before you dissent...you get out there and dissent right away. Telling us we can't dissent against the government in time of war....my goodness! How much further off the mark could one get?
 
Idiotic at best, horribly unpatriotic at worst. Stamp out dissent against the government....because we are at war!!??
Who stamped out desent?
Nobody.
We opposed the Left's idiocy, but didn't stop you from exhibiting it.

Do you take 1984 as a playbook? It was meant as warning. The war in Iraq was unjust, not only did Iraq have nothing to do with 9/11 they posed no threat to the United States.
We weren't attacked by Germany either.
Saddam lost Gulf War 1. He signed on to disarm, not fight a slow cook battle and play games with disarmament that went on for 12-years.

He kicked out Clouseau and the other Inspecteurs of the Sorte (UN).


He was given one last chance. He did not take it.
The war was not only just, Democrat Senators begged for a second vote to show support.

All intel agencies in the world said he had WMD, including the UN.


Furthermore, our government was never granted the ability to "spread democracy". Not our goal, other people can have whatever form of government they want so long as they do not threaten or attack the sovereignty of the People.
Saddam did attack sovereign people and the UN mandated we get his ass out. We did. Then we had to finish the job.
He also tried to assassinate a former President.

David Kay believed he was a greater threat than anticipated because the country was ripe for a terrorist/WMD transaction.

You don't hold off dissent when something bad is going down. If it's bad, then it's bad and needs to stop. Shut up and support the troops....it's America and I can say as I want.
Thank the troops for your rant and your party's inexplicable behavior.

And why does support of the troops only come through support of the war?
Let's say the team is in the game.
You want them to win... then at a minimum don't aid and abet the enemy... or piss in our troops faces.
I don't want to sacrifice American soldiers for things which are not American freedom and liberty.
Congress and the President deemed it was worthy.
Call your representative.

The commitment they have made to this country can not be taken lightly and must be respected. Thus we should only use our military for just means, to do otherwise is an insult.
The people find folks like you disrespectful, and that is the diplomatic response.
They enlisted and believe in what they are doing.

We broke it, we buy it...that's bull****. We've busted lots of things and then gotten the hell out of dodge. If the government is acting improperly, you don't sit and wait for them to finish before you dissent...you get out there and dissent right away.
Actions have consequences. As does inaction.

In this connection
it is well to bear in mind a point that
is often overlooked, a point on which
Clausewitz insists in a singularly convincing
passage namely, the fact that
one of the main objects of a nation
waging war is to force the enemy's
population into a state of mind favourable
to submission. This fact is sufficient
proof of the importance of public opinion
being well informed not only as to the
course of events, but also as to the
principles that give to these events their
real significance
.

THE REALITY OF WAR

A COMPANION TO CLAUSEWITZ
MAJOR STEWART L. MURRAY
1914
Your party leaders, a disgusting lot, lead their party faithful down a twisted road.
You actually voted for the war, and then turned your backs on our troops.
The least you could have done is not scream indignation so the enemy would draw strength.
Have propaganda victories.
Have daily material to pump up their idiots.
The daily body count as just one example... was a daily supply of vitality for the kooks.
Cindy Sheehan.
Durbin. Obama. Kerry. Murtha.
Our own... our own.

You chose otherwise.
You have to live with those actions and their consequences; the blood of our troops on your hands.

Telling us we can't dissent against the government in time of war....my goodness! How much further off the mark could one get?
Nobody told you you cannot.
Only it has consequences... for our troops.
Enemies love it when the opponents society is crapping on the troops and government.

And for what reason?
Why?

.
 
Last edited:
Please prove that pre-2004 Iraq was a threat to American freedoms.
Please prove that WWII Japan was not a threat to the US. :roll:
 
Blah blah blah blah What this has to do with our freedoms is beyond me.
Blah blah blah blah, what you know about our freedoms could be written on your pinky in 14 pt font.
 
We broke it, we buy it...that's bull****. We've busted lots of things and then gotten the hell out of dodge.

I thought the libertarian position was one of responsibility for ones own actions.

Besides, nobody says you can't or shouldn't dissent. Just that these morons in this case aren't helping the cause of protest, when they protest in such a deliquent and juvenile manner.
 
Who stamped out desent?
Nobody.
We opposed the Left's idiocy, but didn't stop you from exhibiting it.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought I was responding to someone who said to shut up till the war was over. That's my bad, I must have misread...oh wait, no I didn't. You're just not taking all the data into consideration and just wanted to go on partisan bickering. "left's idiocy"...what about the "right's idiocy" cause you're all the same form of stupid.

We weren't attacked by Germany either.
Saddam lost Gulf War 1. He signed on to disarm, not fight a slow cook battle and play games with disarmament that went on for 12-years.

What ridiculousness. Germany was in alliance with Japan who did attack us. Germany did actually pose threat to the US. How about not apples to oranges. Think you can manage?

He kicked out Clouseau and the other Inspecteurs of the Sorte (UN).

It was Saddam, he liked pretending he was a big man...and what is the UN going to do anyway? It's rather useless.

He was given one last chance. He did not take it.
The war was not only just, Democrat Senators begged for a second vote to show support.

All intel agencies in the world said he had WMD, including the UN.

The war was not just, intel wasn't right and on such a level that one should be suspicious. Dems and Republicans wanted the war cause the Democrats and the Republicans are the same thing. Faulty intelligence doesn't make something just, it means you should be more careful in the future.

Saddam did attack sovereign people and the UN mandated we get his ass out. We did. Then we had to finish the job.
He also tried to assassinate a former President.

David Kay believed he was a greater threat than anticipated because the country was ripe for a terrorist/WMD transaction.

Yet there was no proof of major terrorist activity in Iraq. In fact, mostly there was never going to be because Saddam ruled that country with an iron fist and nothing challenged him or disrupted his control and power.

And if that sovereign country is Kuwait, well they were side drilling into Iraq and stealing their oil. It doesn't mean that Saddam was justified in invasion, but he had recourse for some compensation. Furthermore, the current ambassador to Iraq could have prevented the whole of it, but that was a political appointment. The ambassador to Iraq was a big time fund raiser for Bush during the election, so got that job. Saddam asked what America would do if he took action against Kuwait for sidedrilling and th ambassador basically said that we'd have no opinion on it. Which of course isn't true, and I'm sure had the ambassador said something like "while you are entitled compensation for stolen oil, the US would heavily look unfavorably upon military action taken against Kuwait" the whole of it would have been avoided; but it wasn't. And Bush 1 was right to stop outside of overthrowing Saddam, not our place to set up governments.

Also, Kuwait is a monarchy, aren't we spreading democracy? Ha

Thank the troops for your rant and your party's inexplicable behavior.

What's my party Mr. Foot-in-mouth?

Let's say the team is in the game.
You want them to win... then at a minimum don't aid and abet the enemy... or piss in our troops faces.

When have I done any of that? Would you like to show that? How is dissent against the government aid and abet? Or pissing on the troops? How is being against an unjust, occupational war set on principles and powers the government was never meant to have doing anything you just claimed?

Or is it that you don't want to hear it, and have made lies, hyperbole, and propaganda to make it seem that if you dare speak out against the war you are somehow damaging the troops. What sort of idiot actually believes that? It's nothing more than partisan hackery to try to quell proper dissent against a war that should have never happened.

Congress and the President deemed it was worthy.
Call your representative.

That doesn't mean I don't get to say anything. Government is corruptible, government is inherently corrupt and naturally progresses towards tyranny and treason. That was an important and well reiterated lesson from the founders. Am I not to speak against unjust government? Really? In the end what you speak against is dissent, and being able to dissent and actually dissenting is one of the most patriotic things a person can do. But you don't like the message of the dissent so you're trying your damnedest to make up excuses as to why the dissent should stop. But it's nothing impressive, it's all full of logical holes and assumptions and other crap rapidly glued together to try to make an argument to halt dissent.

The people find folks like you disrespectful, and that is the diplomatic response.
They enlisted and believe in what they are doing.

What have I done? Show me what I have done that is disrespectful. And if people find it disrespectful that sounds a hell of a lot like their damned problem. You can't rightfully infringe upon my rights because of it; not if you value freedom and liberty. But this neo-fascist approach our government and its supporters have taken lately certainly do not value freedom and liberty. It values State over the People. That's a lot worse than speaking out against unjust, undeclared, unending, occupational war.

Actions have consequences. As does inaction.

Actions do have consequence, something many don't understand. We messed with the Middle East for 60+ years and somehow some of you are surprised that people there hate us and the West.

Your party leaders, a disgusting lot, lead their party faithful down a twisted road.
You actually voted for the war, and then turned your backs on our troops.
The least you could have done is not scream indignation so the enemy would draw strength.
Have propaganda victories.
Have daily material to pump up their idiots.

Who's my party? I never voted for the war, nor do I support those whom did. I align myself with Ron Paul, who voted against the war on all instances because he understood that it wasn't the charge of the government, that the Constitution doesn't give unwavering ability to the government to wage whatever war if feels like that day.

You chose otherwise.
You have to live with those actions and their consequences; the blood of our troops on your hands.

That's stupid, it really is stupid. Intellectually devoid, emotional appeal with no basis is reality. Why is the blood on my hands? When did I send them into a war which has nothing to do with the soveriegnty, freedom, and liberty of America? I didn't do that. The "blood" is on the hands of those who are either too blind or too partisan to see that the course which was taken was improper, that it unnecessarily put at risk the lives and well being of our troops for something which had nothing to do with us. The people who still defend such suspicious and unjust actions as occupational war and those whom spout ignorance like "if you're not with us, you're against us" or "speaking out against the war is not supporting the troops". A bunch of hackery, and full of the type of intelligence I expect to find in a 2nd grade classroom.

Nobody told you you cannot.
Only it has consequences... for our troops.
Enemies love it when their own society is crapping on the troops and government.

Then I suggest our government no engage in unconstitutional, imperialistic occupational wars against sovereign states which pose no threat to America.
 
I thought the libertarian position was one of responsibility for ones own actions.

Besides, nobody says you can't or shouldn't dissent. Just that these morons in this case aren't helping the cause of protest, when they protest in such a deliquent and juvenile manner.

As a matter of fact, bilbus did say that while we are in the conflict, we should just shut up and support the troups. That is someone saying I shouldn't dissent. I think you people should read what I quote before you respond so you don't take the part of the fool.

And the libertarian position is one of responsibility for our actions, it is also one of minding our own damned business. We've messed with the Middle East for many decades, the US and the West as a whole. And we wonder why they're pissed? It doesn't excuse acts of terrorism, but it does show the root cause and if you want to really solve the problem you attack the root cause. Which is that we **** with people well too much and we should stop it. Friendly relations with good trading is what we need, something to win a propaganda war. But people don't want to look at the root. They want to say terrorists hit us and now we have to respond. But if you even mention blowback they get all indignant even though some of you even now are spouting that actions have consequence (and they do). How dare anyone say that we've contributed to the problem! We're totally innocent. Our actions don't have consequences, just those whom we disagree with...their actions have consequences!

Ridiculous. Nothing is ever going to be accomplished if we operate purely off of emotionalized, knee jerk reactions and refuse to think about problems.
 
Ikari
That's stupid, it really is stupid. Intellectually devoid, emotional appeal with no basis is reality. Why is the blood on my hands? When did I send them into a war which has nothing to do with the soveriegnty, freedom, and liberty of America? I didn't do that. The "blood" is on the hands of those who are either too blind or too partisan to see that the course which was taken was improper, that it unnecessarily put at risk the lives and well being of our troops for something which had nothing to do with us. The people who still defend such suspicious and unjust actions as occupational war and those whom spout ignorance like "if you're not with us, you're against us" or "speaking out against the war is not supporting the troops". A bunch of hackery, and full of the type of intelligence I expect to find in a 2nd grade classroom.

No emotional appeal... fact.
You and your ilk certainly aided the enemy.
It is a difficult reality for you to face, but actions do have consequences.

.
 
Ikari


No emotional appeal... fact.
You and your ilk certainly aided the enemy.
It is a difficult reality for you to face, but actions do have consequences.

.

So basically you couldn't respond to the whole of the arguments made and cherry picked something and lied about it. The whole "blood on my hands" thing is appeal to emotion, not fact. You can lie all you want about that, but reality is as it is and there is no amount of lie you can spout to change reality. You've never defined my "ilk" either.
 
I'm not in disagreement... I mainly broguht it up because all anti-war protestors were being labelled as hippies. That simply isn't the case. There are legitimate reasons to protest the war. I don't support vandalism or destruction of private property, however.

No.

There were legitimate reasons to protest starting the war.

There are no legimate reasons to protest it once we're committed to it.

But, what the hell, almost all the Democrats that voted to get us into that mess got re-elected, so it's not like you people were seriously opposed to going into Iraq, you were just following orders to lose the war for as long as GW Bush was in the White House.

Bush won the Iraq conflict despite your people's efforts, fortunately.
 
Please prove that pre-2004 Iraq was a threat to American freedoms.
His statement doesnt necessitate such a thing.
 
As a matter of fact, bilbus did say that while we are in the conflict, we should just shut up and support the troups. That is someone saying I shouldn't dissent. I think you people should read what I quote before you respond so you don't take the part of the fool.

And the libertarian position is one of responsibility for our actions, it is also one of minding our own damned business. We've messed with the Middle East for many decades, the US and the West as a whole. And we wonder why they're pissed? It doesn't excuse acts of terrorism, but it does show the root cause and if you want to really solve the problem you attack the root cause. Which is that we **** with people well too much and we should stop it. Friendly relations with good trading is what we need, something to win a propaganda war. But people don't want to look at the root. They want to say terrorists hit us and now we have to respond. But if you even mention blowback they get all indignant even though some of you even now are spouting that actions have consequence (and they do). How dare anyone say that we've contributed to the problem! We're totally innocent. Our actions don't have consequences, just those whom we disagree with...their actions have consequences!

Ridiculous. Nothing is ever going to be accomplished if we operate purely off of emotionalized, knee jerk reactions and refuse to think about problems.

The majority of people posting on this thread have said that protest is fine. I see you ignored them(and myself) and chose to use a singular example to paint a broad picture of people trying to "squash dissent".

As for the root causes, we need to address what they are over there, and it actually has little to do with us. GySgt has gone over it at length time and time again on this forum, and I haven't seen anybody be able to substantivley argue against his points he has made. You don't like the war, fine. Protest it. But when somebody comes along and can give valid reasons why we should be over there, it looks foolish when one clings to their protest to the point where they ignore or dismiss those reasons entirely.
 
I see no valid reason for having been in Iraq, nor do I think it foolish to continually protest bad and improper government action.
 
I see no valid reason for having been in Iraq, nor do I think it foolish to continually protest bad and improper government action.

You did not but the Democrats voted for it.
You do not possess the foresight, you seem to be oblivious to history, and none of us have the insight a President has.

Ignorance is bliss.
For others there are responsibilities.

I only wish the enemy knew they were being supported by fringe kooks, but having the media kooks shovel the dung out by the ton... the enemies do not care where the encouragement comes from... Just bring it on ... and Thank You for Your Support.

They have the dope to get their warriors high.
Thirsty for those 72 virgins.

.
 
Last edited:
You did not but the Democrats voted for it.
You do not possess the foresight, you seem to be oblivious to history, and none of us have the insight a President has.

Ignorance is bliss.
For others there are responsibilities.

I only wish the enemy knew they were being supported by fringe kooks, but having the media shovel the dung out by the ton... the enemies do not care.

They have the dope to get their warriors high.
Thirsty for those 72 virgins.

.

Do you know nothing other than emotional appeal?
 
Past troops, yes. Current troops, no.

My point is that I don't think people who vandalize (which I find reprehensible) or protest the war are essentially saying, "F you" to our troops. I doubt this has anything to do with our troops and how these people feel about people who serve our country.

Oh, be for real.

Of course it's about the troops...the morons vandalized a recruiting station....and what do recruiting stations harvest? Right, troops.

Now, I realize everyone living in Berkeley is suffering from major brain disorders, but still, if they're protesting the mission, shouldn't they be protesting and vandalizing their Congress-thing's office or the White House, if your theory of their deepest love and concern for the welfare of the troops themselves had any validity?
 
Is there anyone here that supports and defends these actions as an exercise of 'free speech'?

These are actions of vandalism, not free speech.
 
Is there anyone here that supports and defends these actions as an exercise of 'free speech'?

I doubt anyone would come out and admit it.
In private... some are spanking their monkey with glee.

Their whole party were opportunists that emboldened the enemy.
This attack in Berkeley pales in comparison to what the wackos did when the troops needed their support most

.
 
Oh, be for real.

Of course it's about the troops...the morons vandalized a recruiting station....and what do recruiting stations harvest? Right, troops.

Now, I realize everyone living in Berkeley is suffering from major brain disorders, but still, if they're protesting the mission, shouldn't they be protesting and vandalizing their Congress-thing's office or the White House, if your theory of their deepest love and concern for the welfare of the troops themselves had any validity?
These are the same communists that would lay down in from of an abortion clinic to protect it.
 
Why does it matter, we are there now. We started that mess, now we have to clean it up.

Argue all you want before the war, and after the war is over. But when we are in a conflict shut up and support our solders.

Hell, i am no fan of the way the Iraq war sttarted or turned out. I am sure once we are out there will be many studies about how it was wrong and the many mistakes that were made.



Speaking out against unnecessary wars and occupations is the #1 way to support our Troops. This "shut up during the war" mentality is Fascism from fear. Only those who don't care about our Troops don't care where they are sent or why.
 
We broke it, we buy it...that's bull****. We've busted lots of things and then gotten the hell out of dodge. If the government is acting improperly, you don't sit and wait for them to finish before you dissent...you get out there and dissent right away. Telling us we can't dissent against the government in time of war....my goodness! How much further off the mark could one get?

Later on...

Actions do have consequence, something many don't understand. We messed with the Middle East for 60+ years and somehow some of you are surprised that people there hate us and the West.


Damn, figure it out.

Once we crossed the Rubicon...or the Tigris in this case....we were committed. The consequences of breaking Iraq and then running away, as you recommend, are clearly more harmful to our interests than remaining to repair the damage done.

It's that simple.

It's so simple I'm going to allow you the grand experience of identifying what the consequences of the course you proposed would have been.
 
Whether or not you agree with the war, vandalizing a recruiting station is reprehensible. The recruiters didnt start the war in Iraq, theyre just doing their jobs. If you dont support the war and feel the need to go dance in the street about it, go ahead, dont take it out on the military.

Im not really surprised the vandals lacked the testicular foretitude to do it while the Marines were inside haha.
 
Back
Top Bottom