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Thread: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    The church is an employer, a discriminating employer.
    So sue her--see how successful you are.

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Your link isn't working--but a priest CAN be a doctor, but a priest is a priest. There are women who are called "doctors of the Church"-- Doctor of the Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    You want to separate soul and body to try to make your point--and I already said repeatedly, the two are incomplete without the other. The nature of woman is receptive, and the nature of man is generative--but for the human race to be complete, we need both.
    First off, men can be receptive. Secondly, women are at least as generative as men if not more so since we actually birth babies.

    What man has that woman does not have for the position of Pope is the calling.
    If a woman claims she has been called by God, who are men of the church to question her? Since these callings can't be "authenticated" in any way they're moot.

    Men, and only men, are called to the priesthood.
    All of the women who feel they've been called would disagree with you.

    And only 266 men in the whole world have been called to be Pope. Does that mean all the other men in history have been discriminated against?
    No, as it's clear there was no gender discrimination. In the case of the church refusing to employ a female priestess on the basis of her vagina there could be no clearer more straightforward example of gender discrimination.

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Your link isn't working--but a priest CAN be a doctor, but a priest is a priest. There are women who are called "doctors of the Church"-- Doctor of the Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Here I was trying to do something fancy with the linkage. Here is a regular link.

    WorldWide Religious News-Priests preferred to doctors for cure in Arunachal

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    First off, men can be receptive. Secondly, women are at least as generative as men if not more so since we actually birth babies.
    Do you decide gender of the baby? No? 'kay.

    "receptive" is a general term for a distinction between the nature of men and women. Are you the same as your husband? Do you think you could do what he does in your family as well as he does? Or do you each bring something unique to the relationship? Same thing on the level of the priesthood and the Church--that's why the Church is referred to as "she."



    If a woman claims she has been called by God, who are men of the church to question her? Since these callings can't be "authenticated" in any way they're moot.
    Because God gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. If a woman is claiming to be "called" she is mistaken. Even men who claim to be "called" go through rigorous "discernment."

    All of the women who feel they've been called would disagree with you.
    They are welcome to. Their opinion on the matter really means nothing since the Church is not run by popular vote.



    No, as it's clear there was no gender discrimination. In the case of the church refusing to employ a female priestess on the basis of her vagina there could be no clearer more straightforward example of gender discrimination.
    It's not her vagina that gets in the way--it's a lack of an authentic calling. Some men cannot be priests either since in discernment it is determined that their vocation lies elsewhere.

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Do you decide gender of the baby? No? 'kay.
    Oh so what. A woman knows a baby is hers in a way that man never can without scientific intervention. I find this whole idea that women are receptive geniuses while men are generative absurd and offensive.

    "receptive" is a general term for a distinction between the nature of men and women.
    It smacks of submission when thrown around by men of the church.

    Are you the same as your husband? Do you think you could do what he does in your family as well as he does? Or do you each bring something unique to the relationship? Same thing on the level of the priesthood and the Church--that's why the Church is referred to as "she."
    I know stay at home dads - what I do - that are quite successful. I know female software developers - what my man does - that are quite successful. When it comes to the job of preaching in the church there is no rational reason to believe a man is better suited to that position than a woman is.



    Because God gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. If a woman is claiming to be "called" she is mistaken. Even men who claim to be "called" go through rigorous "discernment."
    How do you know she's mistaken? As society has evolved and allowed women to do more so may have God. Maybe in biblical times God acted in a certain way that he might not act today. There's no way church men "know" a woman has not received the calling unless they are claiming an actual angel was sent to them and told them to bar women from the door.

    They are welcome to. Their opinion on the matter really means nothing since the Church is not run by popular vote.
    Nor is it run by God as is easily evidenced by the atrocities that have taken place in church. It is run by men. It is men keeping women out, not God.

    It's not her vagina that gets in the way--it's a lack of an authentic calling. Some men cannot be priests either since in discernment it is determined that their vocation lies elsewhere.
    If it takes a discernment process to evaluate whether or not a man's calling was real I see no reason to not offer the same discernment process to women.
    Last edited by talloulou; 03-22-09 at 05:54 PM.

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The silence from the anti-Catholic bigots, who are flooding their own anti-Catholic threads but ignore a thread where even they can only but admit the Pope is right, is deafening.
    It should not matter if people criticize the Pope. The Pope is a man. Man is fallible. He will make decisions that some disagree with and there's nothing wrong with a little bit of dissension.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Oh so what. A woman knows a baby is hers in a way that man never can without scientific intervention. I find this whole idea that women are receptive geniuses while men are generative absurd and offensive.
    See--again you are seeing one role as "better" than another--they are not--they are "different." You are the one making a discriminatory judgement.


    It smacks of submission when thrown around by men of the church.
    How so? Just because you perceive it in a way it is not intended does not make it so.

    I know stay at home dads - what I do - that are quite successful. I know female software developers - what man does - that are quite successful. When it comes to the job of preaching in the church there is no rational reason to believe a man is better suited to that position than a woman is.
    Except that God is "Father" and Jesus is a man, and the priesthood from the roots of Christianity and beyond, back to the Levitical priests, are men, have been men, will be men--always.



    How do you know she's mistaken. As society has evolved and allowed women to do more so may have God.
    God is immutable--he does not change. Perfection needs no change.

    Maybe in biblical times God acted in a certain way that he might not act today. There's no way church men "know" a woman has not received the calling unless they are claiming an actual angel was sent to them and told them to bar women from the door.
    There are many many many theological reasons why men are priests, and women are not. Even right down to the way the holy of holies is a representation of the womb and only the high priest can enter into it...(see Mary and Jesus).
    I suppose I could try to explain it to you on all those levels, but I don't really get the feeling you care about the rationale. It appears you only want to call the Church misogynistic and validate your own conclusions rather than try to understand WHY the Church believes as she does.
    ...As evidenced here:
    Nor is it run by God as is easily evidenced by the atrocities that have taken place in church. It is run by men. It is men keeping women out, not God.
    ...and here:
    If it takes a discernment process to evaluate whether or not a man's calling was real I see no reason to not offer the same discernment process to women.

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    See--again you are seeing one role as "better" than another--they are not--they are "different." You are the one making a discriminatory judgement.
    The Catholic Church consists of a hierarchy in leadership and women are kept out of prominent roles. In other words forget "better" they are not EQUAL.


    I suppose I could try to explain it to you on all those levels, but I don't really get the feeling you care about the rationale. It appears you only want to call the Church misogynistic and validate your own conclusions rather than try to understand WHY the Church believes as she does.
    ...As evidenced here:


    ...and here:
    You're absolutely right. I care not why the Catholic Church is misogynistic. It's enough that I know that it is. In regards to the OP it is laughable that anyone would look to the Catholic Church in regards to gender equality matters. Yes violence is bad. Kudos to them for recognizing the obvious. However discrimination is also bad. Inequality and hierarchies of people based on gender in the workplace are also bad.

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    Re: Pope condemns sexual violence against women

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I care not why the Catholic Church is misogynistic. It's enough that I know that it is. .
    What is laughable is spouting absurd accusations from a position of ignorance. The teaching of the Church is that man and woman are equal in dignity, though different in their nature. Your "knowing" is blind bigotry.

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