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IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

I'm very pro-Israeli. I was also a professional soldier for some time. Any standing order to shoot and kill unarmed women and children is an order that should be disobeyed without question. What this sharpshooter did was repugnant and criminal. Whether he was told to shoot them or not, he should not have done it. He did it anyway and should be prosecuted. This isn't a case of accidental civilian casualties with an artillery shell or an aerial bomb. This is a sharpshooter deliberately taking multiple shots and killing women and children.

And yes Goobieman, there is absolutely something wrong with any order that leave so much latitude in it's interpretation that soldiers feel that they are permitted to kill unarmed women and children.

The Israeli military is not "trained" to kill these types of people. They are very professional and efficient soldiers. This incident does not define the Israeli military. This was a tragic affair and the culprits should be dealt with. This woman and her children were not valid military targets regardless of any standing order.

If you read the article all the way through you will clearly see this is not a case of a soldier "doing what he was trained to do." The IDF doesn't train their troops to do this. The ground commander and his order to shoot anyone that comes out of the house is a bad example of combat leadership. This soldier killed a woman and her children for leaving their house. That's it. He knew who he was engaging, there was no mistaking these people for armed combatants. They had them under observation and house arrest for several days.

The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

It makes me sick to my stomach, but like other examples, this is not indicative of standard IDF training or orders. This is a sorry douche bag killing women and children.
 
Spoken by a man without a clue.

The truth hurts eh? You would be calling the Palestinians terrorists if they had gunned down a woman and her two kids using an order like this.
 
Context, please?

US Marine in combat on Iwo Jima:
"Jap lives are worth less than American lives"

Noi difference, no surprise, no foul.

Jap soldiers. Not unarmed Jap children and their mothers. And if that is what Marines thought, they were wrong.

There is a "foul" here.
 
I'm very pro-Israeli. I was also a professional soldier for some time. Any standing order to shoot and kill unarmed women and children is an order that should be disobeyed without question.
That wasnt the order given.
The order was to not let anyone pass thru a given location.

And yes Goobieman, there is absolutely something wrong with any order that leave so much latitude in it's interpretation that soldiers feel that they are permitted to kill unarmed women and children.
Recall for a moment that the unarmed women and children the Israelis face are someimes carrying explosives.

How do you, the sniper, given an order to not let anyone pass, determine if this is the case or not?
 
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.

I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.


Most moral army LMAO
Wow, he said that with a straight face.

Like there is such a thing as a moral army
 
Says the man that supports the killing women and children.
See, the only way you can make a point is to deliberatly mis-represent my psotion.
That should tell you something.
Of course, it doesn't, so...
 
See, the only way you can make a point is to deliberatly mis-represent my psotion.
That should tell you something.
Of course, it doesn't, so...

Not mis-representing it at all. You support the killing of women and children.
 
This was clearly an accident, as opposed to the Hamas policy of shelling civilian areas in order to kill civilians. The shooter had orders to shoot anyone who entered that area. The commander gave the civilians permission to enter but failed to inform the shooter. The shooter carried out his orders. It was a mistake and a tragedy that bears no relation at all to Hamas' actions of specifically seeking out and targeting civilians to kill.
 
Says the man that supports the killing women and children.

See, the only way you can make a point is to deliberatly mis-represent my psotion.
That should tell you something.
Of course, it doesn't, so...

where did you say that it was wrong to kill women and children?

all I read from you is "he was following orders" and "maybe they had a bomb"
 
where did you say that it was wrong to kill women and children?

all I read from you is "he was following orders" and "maybe they had a bomb"
Wipe your eyes, bub.
Adults dont cry over being wrong, they just admit it and move on.
 
This was clearly an accident, as opposed to the Hamas policy of shelling civilian areas in order to kill civilians.
Exactly right.
Clearly, the intent here was to let the woman pass, but the counter-order was not sent in time. The sniper did what he was told, nothing more.

But, there are people that equate Israel to Evil. and will never, ever, allow any consideration to the contrary.
 
Wipe your eyes, bub.
Adults dont cry over being wrong, they just admit it and move on.

Are you saying that I'm wrong for condemning the execution of civilians? Then you support their murder, and NextEra was right!
 
Are you saying that I'm wrong for condemning the execution of civilians? Then you support their murder, and NextEra was right!
Yawn. You bore me.
Please let me know when you can discuss this w/o having to lie about what I said.
 
That wasnt the order given.
The order was to not let anyone pass thru a given location.
And how do you facilitate that order Goobieman? Are you saying he had a choice now? He could have walked up to them and said "hey, you guys go back that way" but chose instead to kill them? You said he was following his orders and in doing so killed a woman and two children. As I stated in my post, and you seemed to have missed, the order seemed to have had way too much latitude in it. Or maybe it didn't have any latitude at all, maybe the order was kill anyone who crosses this line. Because that is what this sniper actually did.
The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

He followed his orders, he shot and killed a woman and two children. What we don't have is the actual wording of the actual orders given. What we do have is testimony that a sniper followed his orders and killed an unarmed woman and two children because they were in an area that they should not be in. Don't even try to justify this to me, orders or no orders. I don't believe the commander said specifically "kill women and children" but it is quite apparent the commander gave orders authorizing the killing of anyone who came into that area. This is evidenced by the fact that the soldier followed his orders and killed the woman and her children. I'll not engage in semantics on this.
Recall for a moment that the unarmed women and children the Israelis face are someimes carrying explosives.
Are you suggesting this justifies the killings of women and children in any way?
How do you, the sniper, given an order to not let anyone pass, determine if this is the case or not?
Rather than automatically engage and kill women and children at a distance I think I would get on the radio and say "hey, I have an unarmed woman and two children in a restricted area, should I engage?" That's what I would do. Maybe issue an order to halt. Fire a warning shot, we did this quite effectively in Iraq when there were communications issues and Iraqi's didn't seem to understand the word "halt." It was a woman and two children for crying out loud. It's not like they were running directly at him screaming "Allah!"
 
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As I said:
The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time

No, they were killed because a sniper pulled the trigger and shot them to death based upon his standing orders. Let's not try to church this up.
 
No, they were killed because a sniper pulled the trigger and shot them to death based upon his standing orders. Let's not try to church this up.
Yes. Orders that were meant to be countered; for whatever reason this was not done in time.

bub wants to use this incident to illustrate the moral depravity of the Israelis, and support his ongoing claim that the Israelis deliberately target wopmen and children. This is -obviously- not the case here.
 
And how do you facilitate that order Goobieman?
This is an absurd question. You can think of a zillion ways a sniper MIGHT have stopped people from entering an area, but to do this is only to try to deflect away from the issue.

He followed his orders, he shot and killed a woman and two children. What we don't have is the actual wording of the actual orders given.
Yes, that;s right. And so, absent that, its impossible to argue that the orders he was given were flawed, illegal, immoral or depraved.

Don't even try to justify this to me, orders or no orders.
See above.

I don't believe the commander said specifically "kill women and children" but it is quite apparent the commander gave orders authorizing the killing of anyone who came into that area. This is evidenced by the fact that the soldier followed his orders and killed the woman and her children. I'll not engage in semantics on this
.
See above.

Are you suggesting this justifies the killings of women and children in any way?
I'm suggesting that the 'unarmed women and children' argument isnt iron-clad, given that 'unarmed women and children' often carry explosives.

You DO agree that woment and children carrying explosives are a legitimate target, yes?

So, I ask again -- as the sniper, how do you make that determination?
 
It's not an absurd question at all. You were deliberately trying to frame this argument in such a way as to excuse this snipers actions.
Actually, I was trying to debunk the notion that all of this is an example of the moral depravity of the IDF, as per the picture painted by the OP.

That, I have done.
 
Yes. Orders that were meant to be countered; for whatever reason this was not done in time.

bub wants to use this incident to illustrate the moral depravity of the Israelis, and support his ongoing claim that the Israelis deliberately target wopmen and children. This is -obviously- not the case here.

The issue here is that the orders were ever issued at all. He had orders to kill anyone entering that area apparently, even if they were unarmed women and children. Who cares if they weren't countered...they should have never been issued to begin with. Get it?
 
Actually, I was trying to debunk the notion that all of this is an example of the moral depravity of the IDF, as per the picture painted by the OP.

That, I have done.

Changed my comment...responded to the posts out of order.
 
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