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Thread: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

  1. #41
    R.I.P. Léo
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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Wipe your eyes, bub.
    Adults dont cry over being wrong, they just admit it and move on.
    Are you saying that I'm wrong for condemning the execution of civilians? Then you support their murder, and NextEra was right!

  2. #42
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Are you saying that I'm wrong for condemning the execution of civilians? Then you support their murder, and NextEra was right!
    Yawn. You bore me.
    Please let me know when you can discuss this w/o having to lie about what I said.

  3. #43
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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    And intellectually dishonest to boot.
    Buh-bye.
    Says that man that supports the killing of women and children. Have a nice day.

  4. #44
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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That wasnt the order given.
    The order was to not let anyone pass thru a given location.
    And how do you facilitate that order Goobieman? Are you saying he had a choice now? He could have walked up to them and said "hey, you guys go back that way" but chose instead to kill them? You said he was following his orders and in doing so killed a woman and two children. As I stated in my post, and you seemed to have missed, the order seemed to have had way too much latitude in it. Or maybe it didn't have any latitude at all, maybe the order was kill anyone who crosses this line. Because that is what this sniper actually did.
    The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

    "The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

    According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

    "I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.
    He followed his orders, he shot and killed a woman and two children. What we don't have is the actual wording of the actual orders given. What we do have is testimony that a sniper followed his orders and killed an unarmed woman and two children because they were in an area that they should not be in. Don't even try to justify this to me, orders or no orders. I don't believe the commander said specifically "kill women and children" but it is quite apparent the commander gave orders authorizing the killing of anyone who came into that area. This is evidenced by the fact that the soldier followed his orders and killed the woman and her children. I'll not engage in semantics on this.
    Recall for a moment that the unarmed women and children the Israelis face are someimes carrying explosives.
    Are you suggesting this justifies the killings of women and children in any way?
    How do you, the sniper, given an order to not let anyone pass, determine if this is the case or not?
    Rather than automatically engage and kill women and children at a distance I think I would get on the radio and say "hey, I have an unarmed woman and two children in a restricted area, should I engage?" That's what I would do. Maybe issue an order to halt. Fire a warning shot, we did this quite effectively in Iraq when there were communications issues and Iraqi's didn't seem to understand the word "halt." It was a woman and two children for crying out loud. It's not like they were running directly at him screaming "Allah!"
    Last edited by Lerxst; 03-19-09 at 01:09 PM.
    *insert profound statement here*

  5. #45
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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As I said:
    The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time
    No, they were killed because a sniper pulled the trigger and shot them to death based upon his standing orders. Let's not try to church this up.
    *insert profound statement here*

  6. #46
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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    No, they were killed because a sniper pulled the trigger and shot them to death based upon his standing orders. Let's not try to church this up.
    Yes. Orders that were meant to be countered; for whatever reason this was not done in time.

    bub wants to use this incident to illustrate the moral depravity of the Israelis, and support his ongoing claim that the Israelis deliberately target wopmen and children. This is -obviously- not the case here.

  7. #47
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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    And how do you facilitate that order Goobieman?
    This is an absurd question. You can think of a zillion ways a sniper MIGHT have stopped people from entering an area, but to do this is only to try to deflect away from the issue.

    He followed his orders, he shot and killed a woman and two children. What we don't have is the actual wording of the actual orders given.
    Yes, that;s right. And so, absent that, its impossible to argue that the orders he was given were flawed, illegal, immoral or depraved.

    Don't even try to justify this to me, orders or no orders.
    See above.

    I don't believe the commander said specifically "kill women and children" but it is quite apparent the commander gave orders authorizing the killing of anyone who came into that area. This is evidenced by the fact that the soldier followed his orders and killed the woman and her children. I'll not engage in semantics on this
    .
    See above.

    Are you suggesting this justifies the killings of women and children in any way?
    I'm suggesting that the 'unarmed women and children' argument isnt iron-clad, given that 'unarmed women and children' often carry explosives.

    You DO agree that woment and children carrying explosives are a legitimate target, yes?

    So, I ask again -- as the sniper, how do you make that determination?

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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    It's not an absurd question at all. You were deliberately trying to frame this argument in such a way as to excuse this snipers actions.
    Actually, I was trying to debunk the notion that all of this is an example of the moral depravity of the IDF, as per the picture painted by the OP.

    That, I have done.

  9. #49
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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes. Orders that were meant to be countered; for whatever reason this was not done in time.

    bub wants to use this incident to illustrate the moral depravity of the Israelis, and support his ongoing claim that the Israelis deliberately target wopmen and children. This is -obviously- not the case here.
    The issue here is that the orders were ever issued at all. He had orders to kill anyone entering that area apparently, even if they were unarmed women and children. Who cares if they weren't countered...they should have never been issued to begin with. Get it?
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Actually, I was trying to debunk the notion that all of this is an example of the moral depravity of the IDF, as per the picture painted by the OP.

    That, I have done.
    Changed my comment...responded to the posts out of order.
    *insert profound statement here*

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