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Thread: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

  1. #81
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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    You sound like a Marxist:
    He is, he did quote Noam Chomsky.

    Most Marxists are failures who could not make it in a success driven society.
    George W. Bush is a liberal.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by bilbus View Post
    He is, he did quote Noam Chomsky.

    Most Marxists are failures who could not make it in a success driven society.
    This is growing ever more simultaneously amusing and irritating. Noam Chomsky is also an anarchist, not a Marxist. I do understand that rightists have a very poor understanding of socialism, and would be unable to distinguish different schools of socialism from each other, however, so I do have sympathy for you. However, Marxism has authoritarian inclinations, while anarchism is necessarily libertarian in nature. Anarchists were essentially the first critics of Marxist social organization, and Bakunin essentially predicted the costs of authoritarian forms of Marxist social organization decades before the formation of the USSR.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Condoms Work!!!!!
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    This is growing ever more simultaneously amusing and irritating. Noam Chomsky is also an anarchist, not a Marxist. I do understand that rightists have a very poor understanding of socialism, and would be unable to distinguish different schools of socialism from each other, however, so I do have sympathy for you. However, Marxism has authoritarian inclinations, while anarchism is necessarily libertarian in nature. Anarchists were essentially the first critics of Marxist social organization, and Bakunin essentially predicted the costs of authoritarian forms of Marxist social organization decades before the formation of the USSR.
    Earlier in this thread you betrayed your "anarchist" stance by embracing Marxist doctrine.

    You can't have it both ways.

    Then again, Marxists believe they can have it any way they want.
    They are prevaricators.
    Any lie to get what they want is justified.

    .
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  5. #85
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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Actually there is an anarchist version of socialism/communism. There are so many different schools of thought among the anarchist and minarchist tradition its hard to keep track of them all.

    The fundamental of anarchism is no formal or official government. Sometimes this is construed as no gov't above community level, and communities run as democratic communes. Some anarchists or minarchists propose a government without any coercive power.

    There are capitalist anarchists, who believe that in the absence of gov't authority most people will opt for peacful, mutually-beneficial trade, and compete in the free market.

    Anarchists of socialist/communist inclination, believe most people would opt for non-competitive, cooperative interactions, rather than the competition of capitalism.

    While I don't see anarchism actually working anywhere at any time in history, if anarchism ever did produce a society in absense of all formal gov't, I think the original North American colony provides the answer to capitalism vs communism.

    The pilgrims first had a communal/communist/socialist setup, a "from all according to their abilities, to each according to his need" type of thing. They darn near starved to death, as the lack of incentives to work resulted in very little production.

    They changed things after a year or two to a more capitalist setup, where each family had its own plot and was allowed to keep what it produced, or sell the surplus. Their production boomed, and this is the actual source of the US "Thanksgiving day" tradition.

    The above info is available from the journals of that colony.

    Personally I've long felt that this example puts the capitalism/communism argument to bed.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 03-21-09 at 01:36 PM.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Actually there is an anarchist version of socialism/communism. There are so many different schools of thought among the anarchist and minarchist tradition its hard to keep track of them all.
    The fundamental of anarchism is no formal or official government.
    Si.

    Sometimes this is construed as no gov't above community level, and communities run as democratic communes. Some anarchists or minarchists propose a government without any coercive power.
    In bold... may work on paper... in reality... As the 'ol song goes... that'll be the day...

    There are capitalist anarchists, who believe that in the absence of gov't authority most people will opt for peacful, mutually-beneficial trade, and compete in the free market.
    Sing it ag'in Sam... That'll be the day. Perhaps when we have a society of Angels.

    Anarchists of socialist/communist inclination, believe most people would opt for non-competitive, cooperative interactions, rather than the competition of capitalism.
    Yes, those that don't want to do any work and live off the sweat of others.

    The pilgrims first had a communal/communist/socialist setup, a "from all according to their abilities, to each according to his need" type of thing. They darn near starved to death, as the lack of incentives to work resulted in very little production.
    Yep, Of Plymouth Plantation, William Bradford.

    They changed things after a year or two to a more capitalist setup, where each family had its own plot and was allowed to keep what it produced, or sell the surplus. Their production boomed, and this is the actual source of the US "Thanksgiving day" tradition.
    Yep. The first societal experiment by immigrants to the US was Socialism. It failed then, over the long haul it fails everywhere it is tried.

    Personally I've long felt that this example puts the capitalism/communism argument to bed.
    Agree. And you can add The USSR and its slave states, Euro socialized medicine, Kanuckistani Kare... just the whole enchilada.

    Socialism appeals to the heart, not the intellect. It sounds compassionate, but it really is the road to misery, at worst serfdom.

    Solzhenitsyn wrote about how it destroyed the soul and turned men into barbarians.

    I think we just had a glimpse of that on Capitol Hill this past week.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 03-21-09 at 01:55 PM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    This is probably the best opportunity I'll have to use this video in its proper context.



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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    This is probably the best opportunity I'll have to use this video in its proper context.


    They're brilliant, the lads are.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Actually there is an anarchist version of socialism/communism. There are so many different schools of thought among the anarchist and minarchist tradition its hard to keep track of them all.

    The fundamental of anarchism is no formal or official government. Sometimes this is construed as no gov't above community level, and communities run as democratic communes. Some anarchists or minarchists propose a government without any coercive power.

    There are capitalist anarchists, who believe that in the absence of gov't authority most people will opt for peacful, mutually-beneficial trade, and compete in the free market.

    Anarchists of socialist/communist inclination, believe most people would opt for non-competitive, cooperative interactions, rather than the competition of capitalism.

    While I don't see anarchism actually working anywhere at any time in history, if anarchism ever did produce a society in absense of all formal gov't, I think the original North American colony provides the answer to capitalism vs communism.

    The pilgrims first had a communal/communist/socialist setup, a "from all according to their abilities, to each according to his need" type of thing. They darn near starved to death, as the lack of incentives to work resulted in very little production.

    They changed things after a year or two to a more capitalist setup, where each family had its own plot and was allowed to keep what it produced, or sell the surplus. Their production boomed, and this is the actual source of the US "Thanksgiving day" tradition.

    The above info is available from the journals of that colony.

    Personally I've long felt that this example puts the capitalism/communism argument to bed.

    G.
    In my personal belief I think that there must be an equal amount of competition and cooperation.

    They are both present in everyone's lives as it is now.

    And generally competition is an external structure while cooperation is an internal one. Although I would never support an anarchist style anything at this moment because human are naturally predatory and someone will topple it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    In discussing politics with an Anarchist, the problem I always have is that after about 20 minutes of "stochastic"-this and "anarcho-syndicalist"-that, I feel like someone has stirred my brain with a diesel-powered industrial-grade Roto Rooter.

    Bit bogged down in the terminology and footnotes, maybe.


    Now on the other hand, I do think they have a bit of a point about how non-governmental organizations, such as large corporations, can become just as oppressive to the individual as governments if not kept in check somehow. I have some personal experience with that; I presently work for a company whose "employee handbook" really ought to come with a forklift for carrying it about, and whose surveillance methods make Big Brother look like a amateur. Given the current economy, looking for another job with a more reasonable employer isn't much of an option just now.

    I don't agree that throwing capitalism out on its ear is the answer. Counterbalancing the power of corporations with unions, or requiring that they respect the Bill of Rights where their employees are concerned, or increasing competition for labor by breaking up super-corps with antitrust acts, perhaps. I'm still studying this one and haven't determined what the best answer is.

    Throwing capitalism out entirely (to use a farming metaphor) is like burning your cornfield, because the weeds made you angry.

    G.

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