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Thread: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    They may not be consciously aware of the value of early childbearing in preventing labor interruption, just as the lower class may be unaware of specific data and statistical evidence regarding poverty, but that commentary does nothing whatsoever to address Hotz et al.
    You realize that repeating the phrase "Hotz et al." doesn't make your stance any more cogent, right?

    However, you are correct that it doesn't address that, mostly because you haven't provided a link for it.

    An ignorance of political economy is revealed from yet another poster. The cartoon is not "from" Ollman's essay, which should be rather apparent to you inasmuch as the dollar amounts described in each cartoon are different. Rather, Ollman's critique of capitalism is merely similar to my own, and we thus incorporate similar doctrines within the context of criticizing capitalism. Regardless, Marxist and anarchist theories on socialist organization have been profoundly split ever since their most apparent divergence at the Hague Congress of the First International, when Marx and his supporters engineered the expulsion of Bakunin and his supporters. Perhaps if you possessed a greater degree of familiarity with the historical record you wouldn't make such inappropriate replies.

    Indeed, anarchists were among the first commentators to condemn the authoritarian elements of Marxism, from Bakunin's ideological criticisms of the late nineteenth century to Kropotkin's harsh criticisms of the Bolshevik dictatorship after the Russian Revolution. With that in mind, it is nothing short of grotesque and obscene that the anarchist brand of socialism has been branded "authoritarian" because of the failure of Soviet state capitalism, first predicted by anarchists.
    Dude, I was merely pointing out:

    1) That's the only place I've ever seen that cartoon referenced before, and
    2) The fact that you posted a cartoon with a Marxist critique of capitalism was probably the reason people were...calling you a Marxist.

    But by all means, feel free to expound further on completely irrelevant material and snigger at the fact that other people don't care about the Marxist-Anarchist schism at the First International as much as you do. That sure proved your point about children being born out of wedlock.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Want to know where the vast majority of Obama voters come from?

    I give you this article.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    I don't need any. Simple logic will suffice. The fact that you wished you got more than you did, does not mean that you were in fact underpaid. Previously posted, doublespeak, claptrap does nothing to change that I see right thru the envy inherent in your false assertion. What your "study" attempts to do, is falsely fabricate the real proof of this question. If you want to claim you were underpaid, the ONLY acceptable proof is proving it to me by getting hired doing the same job, at a higher wage. When no one will hire you for what you wish you could get, your logical bubble pops from lack of actual proof.
    The stochastic frontier analysis measures the difference between actual wages and wages if perfect or costless information in the labor market existed. The fact that you aren't able to understand the deleterious consequences of asymmetric information in a capitalist economy is no fault of mine, and it doesn't change the reality of its existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    The fact that I reject something as poppycock does not in any way mean that I don't understand it. Your problem here, is that I understand it all too well. I have a thorough knowledge of its complete falseness.
    An irrational conclusion without arguments or evidence in support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    Quite simply false. The worker's means of producing labor are NOT subject to collective management, unless your collective is enslaving the individual.
    I'm referring to my preferred variety of organization. There's no means of "enslavement" involved, since membership in a collective is based on voluntary association and individuals are free to leave the collective and attempt self-sufficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    Its not ignorant, it just makes your fantasy world take a brief look at the real world. Property rights are enforced ? GOOD ! I can work and earn and leave my kids a head start ? GOOD !
    Actually, no, the only one promoting a fantasy is you, given your utopian conception of political economy. We can refer back to utility issues again when considering the greater interest in promoting equality of opportunity among a living generation than honoring the "right" of a dying member of the financial class, inasmuch as very little utility would be provided to him one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    OOOOPS, no such thing as "surplus value", or the Abominable Snowman for that matter.
    You've done absolutely nothing to disprove its existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    Here's a topic you can study . . .

    from : U.S. Constitution, Article I Section 9

    So, as you can see, our "state" explicitly banned classes.
    Too bad we didn't include classists.
    I really hope you don't actually believe that supports the claim that the state has not created and upheld class structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    Does not exist, and neither does Bigfoot.
    Still no evidence from you!

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You realize that repeating the phrase "Hotz et al." doesn't make your stance any more cogent, right?

    However, you are correct that it doesn't address that, mostly because you haven't provided a link for it.
    Since I mentioned the study's name (and posted an excerpt), the first time I brought it up, it was really a matter of a simple Google Scholar search to find it. Regardless, here is Hotz et al.'s Teenage Childbearing and Its Life Cycle Consequences: Exploiting a Natural Experiment, which indicates that teenage childbearing can be an economic strategy for minority women in that it eliminates labor interruption later in life. As noted by the abstract:

    In this paper, we exploit a "natural experiment" associated with human reproduction to identify the effect of teen childbearing on subsequent educational attainment, family structure, labor market outcomes, and financial self-sufficiency. In particular, we exploit the fact that a substantial fraction of women who become pregnant experience a miscarriage (spontaneous abortion) and thus do not have a birth. If miscarriages were purely random and if miscarriages were the only way, other than by live births, that a pregnancy ended, then women who had a miscarriage as a teen would constitute an ideal control group with which to contrast teenage mothers. Exploiting this natural experiment, we devise an Instrumental Variables (IV) estimators for the consequences of teen mothers not delaying their childbearing, using data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, 1979 (NLSY79). Our major finding is that many of the negative consequences of not delaying childbearing until adulthood are much smaller than has been estimated in previous studies. While we do find adverse consequences of teenage childbearing immediately following a teen mother's first birth, these negative consequences appear short-lived. By the time a teen mother reaches her late twenties, she appears to have only slightly more children, is only slightly more likely to be a single mother, and has no lower levels of educational attainment than if she had delayed her childbearing to adulthood. In fact, by this age teen mothers appear to be better off in some aspects of their lives. Teenage childbearing appears to raise levels of labor supply, accumulated work experience, and labor market earnings, and appears to reduce the chances of living in poverty and participating in the associated social welfare programs. These estimated effects imply that the cost of teenage childbearing to U.S. taxpayers is negligible. In particular, our estimates imply that the widely held view that teenage childbearing imposes a substantial cost on government is an artifact of the failure to appropriately account for preexisting socioeconomic differences between teen mothers and other women when estimating the causal effects of early childbearing. While teen mothers are very likely to live in poverty and experience other forms of adversity, our results imply that little of this would be changed just by getting teen mothers to delay their childbearing into adulthood.
    Certainly data worthy of consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Dude, I was merely pointing out:

    1) That's the only place I've ever seen that cartoon referenced before, and
    2) The fact that you posted a cartoon with a Marxist critique of capitalism was probably the reason people were...calling you a Marxist.
    That cartoon's a broadly anti-capitalist critique; there's no reason that it's explicitly "Marxist." My stated opposition to hierarchy, my black flag avatar, Kropotkin signature, etc., all should have indicated that I'm an anarchist and not a Marxist. However, I'm quite aware that the persons in this thread who referred to me as a Marxist are unfamiliar with the accurate usage of such terminology. Understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    But by all means, feel free to expound further on completely irrelevant material and snigger at the fact that other people don't care about the Marxist-Anarchist schism at the First International as much as you do. That sure proved your point about children being born out of wedlock.
    People chose to bring it up...I chose to rebut it.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Since I mentioned the study's name (and posted an excerpt), the first time I brought it up, it was really a matter of a simple Google Scholar search to find it. Regardless, here is Hotz et al.'s Teenage Childbearing and Its Life Cycle Consequences: Exploiting a Natural Experiment, which indicates that teenage childbearing can be an economic strategy for minority women in that it eliminates labor interruption later in life. As noted by the abstract:
    That's a link to the abstract, which states explicitly that the paper itself is unavailable for download. Have you actually read the paper, or are you just basing all of this off of a two paragraph abstract from a 10 year old paper that used 30 year old data?

    And from a more recent (and downloadable!) paper that cites your article:

    To summarise, we find that having a child as a teenager reduces the chances of post-compulsory schooling by 12% to 24%. The long-term consequences on labour market outcomes are also dire. Labour market experience of teenage mothers is reduced by up to 3 years and the pay differential between women who bore a child as a teenager and other women ranges from 5% to 22%. Teenage motherhood appears to have long-term consequences on the career development of women and hence is likely to lead to the transmission of poverty from one generation to the next. It would thus appear that policies preventing the long-term consequences of teenage motherhood should attach focus first on helping teenage mothers to achieve their potential schooling. The effect of teenage motherhood may be substantial even after accounting for educational differential, which suggests that teenage mothers have difficulties combining labour market participation and child rearing.
    Sort of refutes your hypothesis, eh?
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 03-20-09 at 07:49 PM.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    That's a link to the abstract, which states explicitly that the paper itself is unavailable for download. Have you actually read the paper, or are you just basing all of this off of a two paragraph abstract from a 10 year old paper that used 30 year old data?
    Hmmm.

    The National Child Development Study is a continuous survey of all individuals born in Britain during the first week of March 1958.


    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And from a more recent (and downloadable!) paper that cites your article:

    To summarise, we find that having a child as a teenager reduces the chances of post-compulsory schooling by 12% to 24%. The long-term consequences on labour market outcomes are also dire. Labour market experience of teenage mothers is reduced by up to 3 years and the pay differential between women who bore a child as a teenager and other women ranges from 5% to 22%. Teenage motherhood appears to have long-term consequences on the career development of women and hence is likely to lead to the transmission of poverty from one generation to the next. It would thus appear that policies preventing the long-term consequences of teenage motherhood should attach focus first on helping teenage mothers to achieve their potential schooling. The effect of teenage motherhood may be substantial even after accounting for educational differential, which suggests that teenage mothers have difficulties combining labour market participation and child rearing.
    Sort of refutes your hypothesis, eh?
    It might...if I lived in the UK.

    If you knew a bit more about the topic, you could at least drag this out a bit longer by citing Hoffman. The sacred art of the Google search doesn't seem to have worked out for you so far.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It's not my fault that you lack the imagination to envision a situation where a woman might accidentally get pregnant. It's also not my job to explain it to you. Furthermore, even if a woman chooses to get pregnant, I support the state funding her child's birth in order to mitigate risk to the mother and child. Children are the future of America and mothers who cannot afford the large hospital bill of bringing into the world should be helped. "Should" means a normative statement, and those are my ethics. Take it or leave it.



    In the world of Jerry logic, I'm sure that's how it works.

    Here you're talking about the future, whereas before you ruled out any time other than the present.

    Please make up your mind

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Want to know where the vast majority of Obama voters come from?

    I give you this article.
    Post /fail

    YOU DIDN"T LINK TO AN ARTICLE

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    The fact that you aren't able to understand
    I already covered this with you. I understand it just fine, and it is a marvelous lie told by the envious. The real proof for your assertion was described to you and I doubt you can produce it, since you have not yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I'm referring to my preferred variety of organization.
    Whats that, a mob headed to the rich guy's house ?

    This passage is a dodge. When caught out thinking you own someone else, you just flip up your doublespeak.

    You stated that the means of production are subject to collective management, but are proven wrong by the fact that I own my own means of production of labor, and your collective doesn't get any say in it. This same situation applies to the rest of my property, including the widget making machine in my basement. You can't get your jealous crowd big enough to negate my property rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Actually, no, the only one promoting a fantasy is you, given your utopian conception of political economy.
    You are the one with the Utopian view, as evidenced by your own statements :

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    measures the difference between actual wages and wages if perfect or costless information in the labor market existed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    We can refer back to utility issues again when considering the greater interest in promoting equality of opportunity among a living generation than honoring the "right" of a dying member of the financial class, inasmuch as very little utility would be provided to him one way or the other.
    Newspeak for "its ok to steal the property of the dead" Well, you are dead wrong, graverobber. Respecting contracts and property rights is more important than your unprovable utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    You've done absolutely nothing to disprove its existence.
    and what have you done to disprove the existance of the Abominable Snowman ?

    Why would I bother trying to disprove a fairy tale ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I really hope you don't actually believe that supports the claim that the state has not created and upheld class structure.
    The fact of the matter is that the founding documents make "class" illegal.

    Classism, like you exhibit, remains completely legal, however . . .

    Richest guy in the nation started in a garage, so you are proven wrong by a household name. Gates blows your false crap out of the water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Still no evidence from you!
    You are the one who cannot provide the real proof, and thus you have to resort to another paragraph of your doublespeak. I explained to you that real proof would be getting hired at the same job for a higher wage, and you failed to produce that. Your claim remains unproven, and your paragraph of doublespeak is not an acceptible substitute for the real proof.

  9. #79
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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Hmmm.



    It might...if I lived in the UK.

    If you knew a bit more about the topic, you could at least drag this out a bit longer by citing Hoffman. The sacred art of the Google search doesn't seem to have worked out for you so far.
    So you really just read the two paragraph abstract and then tried to play it off like you're some brilliant scholar on the subject, dropping names like bombs in Nam?

    Hilarious. I'll know not to waste my time actually looking things up when debating with you in the future.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So you really just read the two paragraph abstract and then tried to play it off like you're some brilliant scholar on the subject, dropping names like bombs in Nam?

    Hilarious. I'll know not to waste my time actually looking things up when debating with you in the future.
    Actually, no. I've read through several studies, including those of Geronimus and Korenman, as well as numerous articles regarding the matter. This literature was introduced to me by a sociologist colleague who studies youth issues.

    My only point was that you could have dragged things out a bit longer had you cited Hoffman, as has been done by my opponents on two separate occasions, one of them here, courtesy of Courtesy. Instead, you chose to cite data from the UK...rather inexplicably.
    Last edited by Agnapostate; 03-21-09 at 08:48 AM.

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