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Thread: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

  1. #91
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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    In discussing politics with an Anarchist, the problem I always have is that after about 20 minutes of "stochastic"-this and "anarcho-syndicalist"-that, I feel like someone has stirred my brain with a diesel-powered industrial-grade Roto Rooter.

    Bit bogged down in the terminology and footnotes, maybe.


    Now on the other hand, I do think they have a bit of a point about how non-governmental organizations, such as large corporations, can become just as oppressive to the individual as governments if not kept in check somehow. I have some personal experience with that; I presently work for a company whose "employee handbook" really ought to come with a forklift for carrying it about, and whose surveillance methods make Big Brother look like a amateur. Given the current economy, looking for another job with a more reasonable employer isn't much of an option just now.

    I don't agree that throwing capitalism out on its ear is the answer. Counterbalancing the power of corporations with unions, or requiring that they respect the Bill of Rights where their employees are concerned, or increasing competition for labor by breaking up super-corps with antitrust acts, perhaps. I'm still studying this one and haven't determined what the best answer is.

    Throwing capitalism out entirely (to use a farming metaphor) is like burning your cornfield, because the weeds made you angry.

    G.
    I respect that point of view, I work for a company that fluctuates between the mid cap-large cap line.

    They are in some ways similar to an ESOP that anarchists define as the better corporations, however, they are like you describe just heavily laden with rules an in some ways rival the government as the next big brother.

    I personally don't think any super corp can last any length of time because of the bloated inefficiency. Government is the only thing that usually keeps these behemoths alive.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #92
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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    In discussing politics with an Anarchist, the problem I always have is that after about 20 minutes of "stochastic"-this and "anarcho-syndicalist"-that, I feel like someone has stirred my brain with a diesel-powered industrial-grade Roto Rooter.

    Bit bogged down in the terminology and footnotes, maybe.


    Now on the other hand, I do think they have a bit of a point about how non-governmental organizations, such as large corporations, can become just as oppressive to the individual as governments if not kept in check somehow. I have some personal experience with that; I presently work for a company whose "employee handbook" really ought to come with a forklift for carrying it about, and whose surveillance methods make Big Brother look like a amateur. Given the current economy, looking for another job with a more reasonable employer isn't much of an option just now.

    I don't agree that throwing capitalism out on its ear is the answer. Counterbalancing the power of corporations with unions, or requiring that they respect the Bill of Rights where their employees are concerned, or increasing competition for labor by breaking up super-corps with antitrust acts, perhaps. I'm still studying this one and haven't determined what the best answer is.

    Throwing capitalism out entirely (to use a farming metaphor) is like burning your cornfield, because the weeds made you angry.

    G.

    the worst is when punk anarchists use song lyrics as a source. I don't really care about anything that Bakunin wrote, and I really really don't care about anything Crass wrote.

    otherwise, you get a great deal of props from me for being a libertarian that accepts that private corporations can be just as abusive and curtailing to private liberties as the government.
    Last edited by new coup for you; 03-21-09 at 02:33 PM.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    They're brilliant, the lads are.
    Well zimmer there is hope for you after all since you like Monty python

  4. #94
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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    the worst is when punk anarchists use song lyrics as a source. I don't really care about anything that Bakunin wrote, and I really really don't care about anything Crass wrote.

    otherwise, you get a great deal of props from me for being a libertarian that accepts that private corporations can be just as abusive and curtailing to private liberties as the government.

    I hope thread-drift isn't a capital offense here.

    It seems that this is a bit less of a problem when the economy is booming, employment is near the theoretical minimum, and companies are desperate to hire and retain good workers. More of a problem now that its a buyer's market in labor.

    Still, the fact that when you backtrack the lines of cash flow and control, you so often come to a small number of corporate giants like AIG, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, the Federal Reserve, and so on, you can get in a situation where almost ALL companies engage in practices oppressive to their employees, at the behest of their (uber-giant-corporate/conglomorate/associated) insurers and lenders. At that point, the argument of "well, just find a more reasonable employer and change jobs" becomes meaningless. "Start a business of your own" is another neat soundbite answer, but doing so requires capital or loans or both; not easily accomplished for many people.

    If I own a biz, and my insurer (who is ultimately beholden to AIG and some large banks, and their rules) tells me he won't ensure me unless I institute certain policies (like ICS 9001, ubiquitous surveillance cameras, forbidding employees to carry weapons even if their jobs involve relevant hazards, etc), I'm likely to cave if all potential insurers have the same requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerilla
    I personally don't think any super corp can last any length of time because of the bloated inefficiency. Government is the only thing that usually keeps these behemoths alive.
    The more I learn about corporate structure and finance, the more I think you have a point there. I'm not at all sure that giant corporations are the natural end-product of capitalism, absent gov't meddling in the "free" market. When the gov't manipulates the market, imposes unrealistic regulation that only corporate giants can afford to comply with, and engages in "bailouts" of giants like AIG, Fannie and Freddie and GM because "they're too big to fail" (ha!), then you end up with our current situation, where Mom and Pop stores are all but squeezed out of existence.

    Mom and Pop stores, and small corporations, tend to be more humane to their employees because the distance between "CEO" and Joe BoxLifter is far less removed. This makes it harder for the boss to see Joe as a number instead of a human being with human needs and dignity, imo. Seems self-evident: when the guy who makes policy at the company has his office 100' from where Joe works and sees him every day, Joe is a person. When the policy-maker is a corporate bigshot who works on the 100th floor of a steel tower, and almost never sees the guys and gals who do the actual work of the company, its easier to view them as plug-and-play spare parts.

    my two bits, anyway.

    G.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    The more I learn about corporate structure and finance, the more I think you have a point there. I'm not at all sure that giant corporations are the natural end-product of capitalism, absent gov't meddling in the "free" market. When the gov't manipulates the market, imposes unrealistic regulation that only corporate giants can afford to comply with, and engages in "bailouts" of giants like AIG, Fannie and Freddie and GM because "they're too big to fail" (ha!), then you end up with our current situation, where Mom and Pop stores are all but squeezed out of existence.

    Mom and Pop stores, and small corporations, tend to be more humane to their employees because the distance between "CEO" and Joe BoxLifter is far less removed. This makes it harder for the boss to see Joe as a number instead of a human being with human needs and dignity, imo. Seems self-evident: when the guy who makes policy at the company has his office 100' from where Joe works and sees him every day, Joe is a person. When the policy-maker is a corporate bigshot who works on the 100th floor of a steel tower, and almost never sees the guys and gals who do the actual work of the company, its easier to view them as plug-and-play spare parts.

    my two bits, anyway.

    G.
    That is what my observations have reveled to me at least.

    The large cap companies for the most part get to a point where they can no longer grow and have a large market share.

    They have to switch from growth to maintenance, which I think is difficult to do.

    The corporate structure at that point becomes more bureaucratic than necessary to sustain a competitive edge and much of what they have left is name recognition and present market share.

    A smaller company can provide single products at more flexible rates and quicker because of the lack of bureaucracy.

    There are a few large cap companies that can continue to exist for some time without a large amount of market share loss and that is Walmart and J&J.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  6. #96
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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Actually, no. I've read through several studies, including those of Geronimus and Korenman, as well as numerous articles regarding the matter. This literature was introduced to me by a sociologist colleague who studies youth issues.
    So you admit you didn't read the article you've been citing over and over throughout this thread, but you totally did read some other articles by some other dudes, and you definitely have a friend who knows something about this so that obviously makes you an expert on the topic.

    Did I miss anything there, or do you just want to list a few more author's names as if that proves your point?

    My only point was that you could have dragged things out a bit longer had you cited Hoffman, as has been done by my opponents on two separate occasions, one of them here, courtesy of Courtesy. Instead, you chose to cite data from the UK...rather inexplicably.
    I cited that particular study because it in turn cited the study that you lied and said you had read.

    I don't plan on "citing Hoffman" back at you, because I don't like to cite articles without reading them, and I don't plan on wasting any more time reading articles to respond to someone who can't be bothered to do it themselves.

    Have a good one.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So you admit you didn't read the article you've been citing over and over throughout this thread, but you totally did read some other articles by some other dudes, and you definitely have a friend who knows something about this so that obviously makes you an expert on the topic.

    Did I miss anything there, or do you just want to list a few more author's names as if that proves your point?

    I cited that particular study because it in turn cited the study that you lied and said you had read.

    I don't plan on "citing Hoffman" back at you, because I don't like to cite articles without reading them, and I don't plan on wasting any more time reading articles to respond to someone who can't be bothered to do it themselves.

    Have a good one.
    This is why I don't bother with him either.

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So you admit you didn't read the article you've been citing over and over throughout this thread, but you totally did read some other articles by some other dudes, and you definitely have a friend who knows something about this so that obviously makes you an expert on the topic.

    Did I miss anything there, or do you just want to list a few more author's names as if that proves your point?
    Uh...no. I've read the entire study. So really, you seem to be missing a few things. I've extensively read Hotz and Co.'s work (as well as Hoffman's "rebuttals," including those of the National Campaign), and that of Geronimus and Korenman, Conrad, etc. I've devoted extensive study to this literature. It seems that you have not.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I cited that particular study because it in turn cited the study that you lied and said you had read.
    "Lied" and said I read? Actually, come to think of it, I don't recommend that you read anything I cited. You seem to have some comprehension difficulties.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I don't plan on "citing Hoffman" back at you, because I don't like to cite articles without reading them, and I don't plan on wasting any more time reading articles to respond to someone who can't be bothered to do it themselves.

    Have a good one.
    You don't appear to have *read* the article you referenced inasmuch as it focuses on the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This is why I don't bother with him either.
    No, you don't bother with me because you lack the means to support your arguments, as evidenced by your unwillingness to have a one-on-one debate with me. (Where you would prove your superiority in debate to me once and for all and thus not have to deal with me ever again.)

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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    In discussing politics with an Anarchist, the problem I always have is that after about 20 minutes of "stochastic"-this and "anarcho-syndicalist"-that, I feel like someone has stirred my brain with a diesel-powered industrial-grade Roto Rooter.

    Bit bogged down in the terminology and footnotes, maybe.
    I'm pretty certain I've never met a happy anarchist. Not sure why that is.


  10. #100
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    Re: US births break record; 40 pct out-of-wedlock

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Uh...no. I've read the entire study. So really, you seem to be missing a few things. I've extensively read Hotz and Co.'s work (as well as Hoffman's "rebuttals," including those of the National Campaign), and that of Geronimus and Korenman, Conrad, etc. I've devoted extensive study to this literature. It seems that you have not.
    Oh, really? Do you have a link to anything beyond the abstract?

    Also, I'm having major lol's at the fact that you once again responding by dropping more names as if that were a substantive rebuttal. Nice work.

    "Lied" and said I read? Actually, come to think of it, I don't recommend that you read anything I cited. You seem to have some comprehension difficulties.
    I asked you twice if you read the article. You dodged the question both times. I assumed (and do still assume) that that means you didn't and are now merely trying to cover it up.

    You don't appear to have *read* the article you referenced inasmuch as it focuses on the UK.
    I'm not sure why you think that fact leads to that conclusion, but alright.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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