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Pope in Africa says church must help the poor

It can hurt in that it gives a false sense of safety and so people engage in the risky behavior thinking "it won't happen to me!"

Only if people are stupid enough to think that it's 100% effective. When I have had sex with people using condoms I certainly don't think that it's going to be 100% effective. However, one can't live their life in constant fear of something that could happen. It's good to be cautious, but not overly fearful. If it ends up biting me in the ass, so be it.
 
I love Monty Python--and even that "Every sperm is sacred" song is funny if it's seen as satire rather than how so many seem to actually believe that the Church teaches that.

Exactly and that's what I was mocking because of the topic at hand. I love Monty Python too.
 
Do you think Africans are too stupid, or too morally bankrupt to learn to control the behaviors that spread AIDS?

Yes. I'm pretty sure this would be obvious to anybody who studies the subject. Africa as a continent showed itself to be incapable of controlling it's sexual behavior even with the help of religion in the last 20 years. Thanks not only in part to tribalism but also to the prevalence of Christian & Muslim clergy. Only because of the persistence of groups that seek to educate and inform people has the growth been somewhat stalled. The position of the Catholic Church is one of willful ignorance of what humans do when they're not educated. One that doesn't take into account real sexual education, human behavior or societal problems. That you're defending this is no surprise.

Africa | Catholic Relief Services --and that's just the USCCB. Worldwide, Catholic charitable services are leaders in caring for those in need.

Meaning what exactly? That money isn't being used by the Catholic Church to teach sexual education. It's not being used to provide uneducated masses with condoms. So then what good is it for? Paying for the Pope's palace and telling people not to have sex?
 
Yes. I'm pretty sure this would be obvious to anybody who studies the subject. Africa as a continent showed itself to be incapable of controlling it's sexual behavior even with the help of religion in the last 20 years. Thanks not only in part to tribalism but also to the prevalence of Christian & Muslim clergy. Only because of the persistence of groups that seek to educate and inform people has the growth been somewhat stalled. The position of the Catholic Church is one of willful ignorance of what humans do when they're not educated. One that doesn't take into account real sexual education, human behavior or societal problems. That you're defending this is no surprise.



Meaning what exactly? That money isn't being used by the Catholic Church to teach sexual education. It's not being used to provide uneducated masses with condoms. So then what good is it for? Paying for the Pope's palace and telling people not to have sex?

It's not the Catholic Church's mission to teach sex education outside of their doctrine. If other groups want to teach sex education that includes birth control and condoms, that's fine. I don't see the Catholic Church holding a gun to anyone's head and banning them from doing so.

What the Church does do in Africa is it spends vast amounts of resources caring for people who are in a bad way while maintaining its own principles. Anyone who has a problem with them doing good work in any way they can is just being a retarded idealogue who cares more about bashing the good samaritan than he or she does about the people in need.
 
Exactly and that's what I was mocking because of the topic at hand. I love Monty Python too.

Not everyone "gets it." Very many think that is what the Church teaches.

In fact--if there were any way to prove it, I'd be willing to wager only a few people on these threads have a clue as to why the Church is against artificial BC--and the rest don't care. They are happy to keep flailing at the straw man because the point is to bash and have fun doing it rather than to actually LEARN something and have a more open mind to the different ways people view the world.
 
It's not the Catholic Church's mission to teach sex education outside of their doctrine. If other groups want to teach sex education that includes birth control and condoms, that's fine. I don't see the Catholic Church holding a gun to anyone's head and banning them from doing so.

What the Church does do in Africa is it spends vast amounts of resources caring for people who are in a bad way while maintaining its own principles. Anyone who has a problem with them doing good work in any way they can is just being a retarded idealogue who cares more about bashing the good samaritan than he or she does about the people in need.

So then they shouldn't be surprised when their ineffectiveness of their actions is criticized. The Catholic Church spending 'vast amount of resources' while at the same time telling people to engage in behavior that poses a great risk(like for example : not using condoms) to their health is a ridiculous contradiction.

The Samaritan work of the CC is akin to the nurse in Misery. Help but continue to make the problem worse by not properly educating people.
 
Yes. I'm pretty sure this would be obvious to anybody who studies the subject. Africa as a continent showed itself to be incapable of controlling it's sexual behavior even with the help of religion in the last 20 years.
Incapable? Really?

Rather racist of you.:doh

That you're defending this is no surprise.
I don't get what about "helping people" requires a defense.:confused:


Meaning what exactly? That money isn't being used by the Catholic Church to teach sexual education. It's not being used to provide uneducated masses with condoms. So then what good is it for? Paying for the Pope's palace and telling people not to have sex?
See? That's that "flailing at the straw man" I described. ;)
 
Incapable? Really?

Rather racist of you.:doh

How so? Am I saying that they are incapable because of race? Because Africa is mostly black? No. Africa has proven itself incapable because it is populated by largely uneducated religious masses. Just like South America. The other Catholic Haven that just happens to have ridiculously high rates of AIDS. Your appeal to emotion has been denied.

I don't get what about "helping people" requires a defense.:confused:

I asked several questions. Like for example what kind of help is the Catholic Church supposed to offer while posing for photo-ops with the very dictators that contribute to the problem.

See? That's that "flailing at the straw man" I described. ;)

:lol: You're silly. Now go back to the abortion threads where you can argue about a bunch of cells being a human being.
 
So then they shouldn't be surprised when their ineffectiveness of their actions is criticized. The Catholic Church spending 'vast amount of resources' while at the same time telling people to engage in behavior that poses a great risk(like for example : not using condoms) to their health is a ridiculous contradiction.

The Samaritan work of the CC is akin to the nurse in Misery. Help but continue to make the problem worse by not properly educating people.

well I see you went from semi mindless bashing straight to full on absurdity in no time flat.

I would type really slowly but I doubt that's going to help your comprehension any better. But I will offer you a compromise...

When Hatuey manages to amass a veritable army of volunteers dedicated to the cause along with providing sustainable and enduring charitable contributions to put medicines, food, building supplies, fresh water, orphan care services, education, and counseling in the hands of those volunteers....and when Hatuey gathers the resources to deploy those volunteers and resources to Africa and begins bringing much needed relief to Africa on the scale that the Catholic Church does, then and only then might I be inclined to criticize the Church for doing what it can within boundaries that it has maintained since long before you started your sniveling bitching about how it operates in Africa.

I'm going to repeat one more time: the Church does not have a mission of teaching sex education. It has a mission of alleviating human suffering and giving doctrinal instruction as it relates to the Church.
 
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well I see you went straight from semi mindless bashing straight to full on absurdity in no time flat.

I see you engaged in ad homs like you usually do when you can't come up with any coherent arguments.

I would type really slowly but I doubt that's going to help your comprehension any better. But I will offer you a compromise...

When Hatuey manages to amass a veritable army of volunteers dedicated to the cause along with providing sustainable and enduring charitable contributions to put medicines, food, building supplies, fresh water, orphan care services, education, and counseling in the hands of those volunteers....and when Hatuey gathers the resources to deploy those volunteers and resources to Africa and begins bringing much needed relief to Africa on the scale that the Catholic Church does, then and only then might I be inclined to criticize the Church for doing what it can within boundaries that it has maintained since long before you started your sniveling bitching about how it operates in Africa.

AIDS & HIV in Africa questions and answers

In the West there is a temptation for people to focus on the “exotic” aspects of HIV in Africa and to forget that the major problems of HIV prevention are much the same as those in Europe, the USA or anywhere else. The vast majority of HIV transmissions in Africa occur during unprotected heterosexual sex. HIV prevention efforts should aim to make behaviour and practices safer while respecting local cultures. In many cases this may be achieved through relatively small changes in cultural practices, such as sterilising blades or switching to alternative rituals that are culturally acceptable but carry a lower risk of HIV transmission.14

Do you want me to explain in any more of a clear term why the Catholic Church is actually making things worse in Africa regardless of how much money they throw at the already sick people?

I'm going to repeat one more time: the Church does not have a mission of teaching sex education. It has a mission of alleviating human suffering and giving doctrinal instruction as it relates to the Church.

I'm going to throw this at you for the first time : Hatuey does not have an obligation to believe that what the Catholic Church is doing is actually helping when their mission is helping to make the problem worse.
 
I see you engaged in ad homs like you usually do when you can't come up with any coherent arguments.

I see you refuse to acknowledge that there is a world beyond the end of your mindless Church bashing nose like you usually do when you can't address the arguments presented to you.

AIDS & HIV in Africa questions and answers



Do you want me to explain in any more of a clear term why the Catholic Church is actually making things worse in Africa regardless of how much money they throw at the already sick people?

They aren't making a problem worse. They are addressing the needs of the sick. If you want to go pass out condoms and educate people in Africa in ways that the Church can't, you and any other organization are more than welcome to do so. Until you get off your ass and do something about the issue yourself as opposed to banging your keyboard and gnashing your teeth over the internetz about how the Church won't fit into your skewed and, quite frankly, worthless perception of what is and isn't help, I don't really see where you have much more claim to any "point" save that you are a consummate hypocrite.


I'm going to throw this at you for the first time : Hatuey does not have an obligation to believe that what the Catholic Church is doing is actually helping when their mission is helping to make the problem worse.

No, hatuey has never really been one to give proper respect to reality when he sees an opportunity to rail against those who are actually doing good in the world.
 
I see you refuse to acknowledge that there is a world beyond the end of your mindless Church bashing nose like you usually do when you can't address the arguments presented to you.

uh what? Yeah a world full of mystery...where telling people to not use condoms is good if you help them die peacefully. Ummm alright there?

They aren't making a problem worse.

False :

Brazil Blasts Church for AIDS, Condoms Stance

Brazil's government has criticized the local Roman Catholic church for not supporting condom use to help prevent HIV infection. The Health Ministry noted that while the church recommends abstinence and fidelity, the church should not ignore science and serious public health matters that must be addressed. The National Bishops' Association restated last week the church's opposition to Catholics using condoms, although some clergymen who work with AIDS patients reportedly disagreed with the ruling. A 1999 study estimated there were at least 540,000 HIV-infected individuals in Brazil, out of an overall population of 160 million.
000619

Catholic Church's Opposition to Condom Use Contributes to Spread of HIV in Latin America, UNAIDS Official Says - The Body

The Roman Catholic Church's opposition to condom use is contributing to the spread of HIV in Latin America, Alberto Stella -- UNAIDS coordinator for Honduras, Nicaragua and Costa Rica -- said on Monday, Reuters reports.

"In Latin America, the use of condoms has been demonized, but if they were used in every relation, I guarantee the epidemic would be resolved in the region," Stella said. He added that youth "start to be sexually active between 15 and 19 without sex education" -- a factor that contributes to the spread of HIV. In addition, evidence indicates that promoting abstinence is "not working," according to Stella.

Do you want to try this again? Seriously. I can do this all day.

They are addressing the needs of the sick.

Which as I stated. Very honorable. Until one realizes that the sick are there in part because of the Catholic Church's work.

If you want to go pass out condoms and educate people in Africa in ways that the Church can't, you and any other organization are more than welcome to do so. Until you get off your ass and do something about the issue yourself as opposed to banging your keyboard and gnashing your teeth over the internetz about how the Church won't fit into your skewed and, quite frankly, worthless perception of what is and isn't help, I don't really see where you have much more claim to any "point" save that you are a consummate hypocrite.

One long ad hom. Thanks for trying?

No, hatuey has never really been one to give proper respect to reality when he sees an opportunity to rail against those who are actually doing good in the world.

Doing good by telling poor uneducated people to not use condoms and posing with the dictators that keep them down. Well...uh sure.
 
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IC Publications


There you go. That's what should happen. :2wave:

If only they didn't need the pope to anger them into doing it.

You're right. Instead of trying to do this as a statement against the Pope today, they should have done this as a statement for the people of Africa yesterday.

Of course the Pope makes these statements. But what authority does the Pope really carry when it comes to world health crises? That's right...none. Zero, nada.

So let the Church do what the Church does which is alleviate human suffering and let the WHO and other organizations do what they do which is address the health issue.
 
uh what? Yeah a world full of mystery...where telling people to not use condoms is good if you help them die peacefully. Ummm alright there?

The rabidity has eaten your ability to think anymore. I, nor the Church, ever made the claims you just did. You are now becoming, not only an hysterical joke, but a liar too.


Sure. But it serves no point because none of that addressed anything I stated about what the Church's mission actually is. But it's fun to watch you run back and forth in a round room trying to find a corner. :shrug:

Which as I stated. Very honorable. Until one realizes that the sick are there in part because of the Catholic Church's work.

Suuurvey says...

X

The sick are there because AIDS is a very nasty disease that sees no color or class boundary. It sees an opening in risky behavior and it strikes. Blaming the AIDS crisis in Africa on the Church is just childish, idiotic, and low even for you. Well, probably not for you.


One long ad hom. Thanks for trying?

No, one long statement of the obvious when it comes to you and how you address any issue that the Church is part of. Present something worth debating and you won't be the object of ridicule, sparky.

Doing good by telling poor uneducated people to not use condoms and posing with the dictators that keep them down. Well...uh sure.

No, telling poor uneducated people that they shouldn't engage in sex outside of monogamy and attempting to build partnerships with their governments so that aid can be deployed faster.

Thank for trying.
 
The rabidity has eaten your ability to think anymore. I, nor the Church, ever made the claims you just did. You are now becoming, not only an hysterical joke, but a liar too.

More ad homs. Tell me. Do you support the Catholic Church telling people not to use condoms? :lol:

Sure. But it serves no point because none of that addressed anything I stated about what the Church's mission actually is. But it's fun to watch you run back and forth in a round room trying to find a corner. :shrug:

You claimed that the Catholic Church is not making the problem worse. This is proven demonstratively false by the people handling the situation from a medical perspective and not from a religious one. Do you have ANYTHING else you want to claim? Or are you going to sit here and tell me that you're now a big supporter of the Church's abstinence only position?

Suuurvey says...

X

The sick are there because AIDS is a very nasty disease that sees no color or class boundary. It sees an opening in risky behavior and it strikes.

Actually. AIDS does see class and social boundaries. AIDS is prevalent in Africa, South America and everywhere else where people live in poverty and are both highly religious and highly uneducated. North America, Europe and most modernized countries in Asia do not seem to have this problem? Why? Even the AIDS epidemic in America during the 80s does not compare to the situation in Africa. Why? Could it be because people smartened up? Started using condoms more regularly? Started educating themselves about dangerous sexual practices? I'm willing to bet a shinny dollar that it's because of that and not because they chose to engage in FAILED religious programs like those supported by the Catholic Church?

Blaming the AIDS crisis in Africa on the Church is just childish, idiotic, and low even for you. Well, probably not for you.

Who blamed it solely on the church? I said they were partly responsible but only because they take advantage of the highly uneducated masses. Keep trying.

No, one long statement of the obvious when it comes to you and how you address any issue that the Church is part of. Present something worth debating and you won't be the object of ridicule, sparky.

No, telling poor uneducated people that they shouldn't engage in sex outside of monogamy and attempting to build partnerships with their governments so that aid can be deployed faster.

Thank for trying.

You keep trying to bait me. Why? Is it because you can't seem to comprehend that the way that the way the CC is going about this is simply wrong and not helping anyone? Even after it's been proven so? Even after abstinence programs have been discredited for the failure that they are? Even after you YOURSELF have argued against abstinence programs? Or is it because it is the Catholic Church that you're getting all offended?
 
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More ad homs. Tell me. Do you support the Catholic Church telling people not to use condoms? :lol:

Yes, more ad homs because you are the butt of your own joke at this point.

I support the Catholic Church providing aid and relief to Africa's poor and sick. I do not support the expectation that in order for them to do this that they must abandon their doctrine and dogma.

You claimed that the Catholic Church is not making the problem worse. This is proven demonstratively false by the people handling the situation from a medical perspective and not from a religious one. Do you have ANYTHING else you want to claim? Or are you going to sit here and tell me that you're now a big supporter of the Church's abstinence only position?

I never said that I was a big supporter of abstinence only. I stated that I was in support of the Church doing what the Church does in Africa and that until another force comes along that can provide that relief, all the Church bashers should be ignored as the hypocrites and hysterics that they are.

And no, you have not demonstratively shown anything. You've caterwauled and thrown irrelevant statistics around, but you have failed to address the actual issue here. You just bitched about the Catholic Church...helping people. Again. And you will do the same tomorrow and the day after that. It's all you know how to do.

Actually. AIDS does see class and social boundaries.

No, it does not. AIDS sees victims in all classes and social groups. Except maybe nuns. ZOMG!!!!!! Abstinence might work after all. :doh

AIDS is prevalent in Africa, South America and everywhere else where people live in poverty and are both highly religious and highly uneducated.

And in gay men who are typically more affluent and educated. It sees no difference in me or an African hut dweller when there is an opening.

North America, Europe and most modernized countries in Asia do not seem to have this problem? Why? Even the AIDS epidemic in America during the 80s does not compare to the situation in Africa. Why? Could it be because people smartened up? Started using condoms more regularly? Started educating themselves about dangerous sexual practices? I'm willing to bet a shinny dollar that it's because of that and not because they chose to engage in FAILED religious programs like those supported by the Catholic Church?

Once again, the Church isn't there to teach sex ed. It is there to provide relief and spiritual guidance.

Who blamed it solely on the church? I said they were partly responsible but only because they take advantage of the highly uneducated masses. Keep trying.

I don't need to anymore. In fact, I am afraid if I continue to demonstrate how you have failed, you just might have your head explode and I don't want your wife to have a mess to clean up.

You keep trying to bait me. Why? Is it because you can't seem to comprehend that the way that the way the CC is going about this is simply wrong and not helping anyone? Even after it's been proven so? Even after abstinence programs have been discredited for the failure that they are?

No, it is because you keep trying to apply a standard to the Catholic Church that does not fit. What you fail to understand is that the Catholic Church isn't there to pass out condoms so criticizing them for not doing so is, at best, a fools errand. No one is saying that abstinence programs aren't a failure. What is being said is that the Church isn't stopping anyone from passing out condoms but the Church also isn't going to move away from its core belief that abstinence is moral and good. That is not enough to condemn the church's efforts in all other arenas.

Even after you YOURSELF have argued against abstinence programs?

I still do.

Or is it because it is the Catholic Church that you're getting all offended?

No, I am getting all offended because I find lies and distortions being peddled under the guys of "THINK OF THE AAAAAAFRICAAAANS!!!!" to be offensive on all fronts.
 
Yeah--he could lead them in prayer--...keep having sex outside of the bond of marriage and pray that the little latex prophylactic baking in the African sun holds up. Great plan.:doh

Oh please, responsible use of condoms is needed and the Pope is guilty in using his influence due to the fact many Africans are religious and uneducated.
 
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I don't think this issue is so black and white. The Church does help the poor world wide, even though its views on sexual education and prevention are primitive. When I was a volunteer in Southern Brazil, my (non-religious) group worked alongside the local Catholic Churches to provide nourishment and activities for the local families. In the developed world we have the luxury of relying on government institutions to provide us with secular information and handouts, but in developing nations the governments are either corrupt or don't have the resources to provide. The Church and other NGOs often meet this gap in needs.

I don't agree with the Catholic Church's view on condom use whatsoever. I think it is a dangerous, antiquated policy predicated on the belief that it obstructs reproduction; meanwhile, millions of babies worldwide are born with AIDS every year because their infected parents engaged in unprotected sex.

Simply advocating marriage is insufficient. Marriage doesn't protect people from HIV. In South Africa, one in three people has HIV... that is 30% of the population. There needs to be a radical shift in education towards safe sexual practices, medical facilities that offer rapid testing so that people can know their status, and support for infected people on healthier living and prevention of spread of the disease.

Africa needs all the help it can get and the Church has a place in that (in terms of food, shelter, helping people to go to school, community projects, etc.), but when it becomes to sexual education, it should be left to the non-religious NGOs. Islam and Catholicism are both guilty of perpetuating sexual ignorance in Africa and they are conflating the HIV epidemic big time.
 
I think it is a dangerous, antiquated policy predicated on the belief that it obstructs reproduction; ....

It is much more than that. Much much more than that--and that is why I got after dclxvinoise about the "Every Sperm is Sacred" reference. The Church's view of life and sex and it's purpose as it relates to God is very deeply rooted in her theology concerning mankind's relationship to God and what "love" really is. It's less about procreation than it is about honesty and truth and trust and self donation.

See John Paul II's Theology of the Body
 
You know on a continent that thinks that having unprotected sex with a virgin cures aids, perhaps abstinence teaching is not such a bad idea.
 
So then they shouldn't be surprised when their ineffectiveness of their actions is criticized. The Catholic Church spending 'vast amount of resources' while at the same time telling people to engage in behavior that poses a great risk(like for example : not using condoms) to their health is a ridiculous contradiction.

The Samaritan work of the CC is akin to the nurse in Misery. Help but continue to make the problem worse by not properly educating people.




So the church is telling these people to have unprotected sex? :confused:



Your bigotry blinds you, it is a sad state you live in.
 
You know on a continent that thinks that having unprotected sex with a virgin cures aids, perhaps abstinence teaching is not such a bad idea.

Not a bad idea? How about we give them a crater full of condoms and tell them that prevents catching aids? You know ... the truth :/
 
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Not a bad idea? How about we give them crater full of condoms and tell them that prevents catching aids? You know ... the truth :/




Are you suggesting the Catholics are preventing condoms from being used? any evidence?
 
Are you suggesting the Catholics are preventing condoms from being used? any evidence?

I said that?
Tho the Pope has some responsibility, spreading his religious BS to a continent which is being crippled with Aids.

I suggested why we do not give them condoms for free, along with food and other medicine. How about a 'Hey, here is some protection - USE IT'
 
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