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Selling sex legally in New Zealand

Oh come on.

A waitress sells what's on the menu. A whore is the menu. Comparing the two is freaking retarded. Attempting to make all relationships sound like whore relationships is retarded. You want to defend the whore life? Defend it. Quit the absurd equivocations.
 
Clearly there's something special about them. If a man is paying a prostitute he wants her mouth on his dick, not talking. He wants to use her vagina or ass, not hold her hand.

I don't want my masseuse or hairdresser to talk either. I don't want to hold their hands. I want them to STFU and do their job which is to service my body with theirs.
 
Clearly there's something special about them.

So then you should be able to clearly be able to define that in a lucid concise manner. So what so special about those body parts over a master craftperson's hands?
 
Oh come on.

A waitress sells what's on the menu. A whore is the menu. Comparing the two is freaking retarded. Attempting to make all relationships sound like whore relationships is retarded. You want to defend the whore life? Defend it. Quit the absurd equivocations.

No, she does not sell what's on the menu. You think she gets paid according to what people order? **** no she doesn't. And, she gets paid the same regardless of whether there are 500 customers, or 5 customers. She is selling herself at an hourly wage. She's selling her body for physical labor.

You think there's a clear distinction, then go ahead and clearly outline it for everyone else. Thus far not a single one of you have been able to do so. Not in this thread, not in any thread.
 
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So then you should be able to clearly be able to define that in a lucid concise manner. So what so special about those body parts over a master craftperson's hands?

Let's see if I'm a carpenter, a waitress, a bartender, a hairdresser, a massage therapist, etc I don't need to have an HIV test every 6 months. I don't have to worry about accidentally making a baby while selling food, beer, hairstyles, etc.
 
Let's see if I'm a carpenter, a waitress, a bartender, a hairdresser, a massage therapist, etc I don't need to have an HIV test every 6 months. I don't have to worry about accidentally making a baby while selling food, beer, hairstyles, etc.

When I was an EMT I had to have Hep vaccinations and have HIV test every 6 months.

When I was working on computers I didn't have to worry about accidentally sending an injured person careening down a ski slope on a runaway patrol sled either.

So, what's your point?
 
No, she does not sell what's on the menu. You think she gets paid according to what people order? **** no she doesn't. And, she gets paid the same regardless of whether there are 500 customers, or 5 customers. She is selling herself at an hourly wage. She's selling her body for physical labor.

She absolutely does get paid according to what has been ordered. Generally what she will and won't do for what price is discussed up front. And if she gets paid the same for servicing 5 men as she would for servicing 1 man then she's a very very stupid whore. She's selling her body as a disposable scratching post to be used by men who think it's ok to view women as disposable items up for auction.
 
Let's see if I'm a carpenter, a waitress, a bartender, a hairdresser, a massage therapist, etc I don't need to have an HIV test every 6 months.[/quoute]

Why not? There are plenty of single and married people that fool around.

I don't have to worry about accidentally making a baby while selling food, beer, hairstyles, etc.

See my response above.
 
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She absolutely does get paid according to what has been ordered. Generally what she will and won't do for what price is discussed up front. And if she gets paid the same for servicing 5 men as she would for servicing 1 man then she's a very very stupid whore. She's selling her body as a disposable scratching post to be used by men who think it's ok to view women as disposable items up for auction.

Umm.. we were talking about waitresses, but amusing that you would get the two mixed up. And kinda proves my point for me, doesn't it. ;)

You said waitresses are selling what's on the menu. No, they are not. They are selling themselves for physical labor. Waitresses get paid the same regardless of what people order. They are selling themselves to their employer.
 
Let's see if I'm a carpenter, a waitress, a bartender, a hairdresser, a massage therapist, etc I don't need to have an HIV test every 6 months.{/quoute]

Why not? There are plenty of single and married people that fool around.



See my response above.

There is no risk in the above jobs that you will procreate, get HIV, etc. If you develop relationships in those jobs that result in such risks that's "outside" the job stuff.

Winston do you think being a whore is exactly the same as being a girlfriend, a waitress, a computer programmer as Riv suggests?
 
Umm.. we were talking about waitresses, but amusing that you would get the two mixed up. And kinda proves my point for me, doesn't it. ;)

You said waitresses are selling what's on the menu. No, they are not. They are selling themselves for physical labor. Waitresses get paid the same regardless of what people order. They are selling themselves to their employer.

Actually I would argue that a waitress is selling themeselves to the customers since they live on tips.
 
There is no risk in the above jobs that you will procreate, get HIV, etc. If you develop relationships in those jobs that result in such risks that's "outside" the job stuff.

Winston do you think being a whore is exactly the same as being a girlfriend, a waitress, a computer programmer as Riv suggests?

I never said the JOBS were exactly the same. Obviously being a cop is different than being a fireman. What I DID state was the same is the FACT that in EVERY SINGLE JOB you are 'selling yourself'. If you consider prostitution to be 'selling yourself', then it logically follows that one is selling themselves in ANY profession and thus makes said 'point' a moot point.
 
Umm.. we were talking about waitresses, but amusing that you would get the two mixed up. And kinda proves my point for me, doesn't it. ;)

You said waitresses are selling what's on the menu. No, they are not. They are selling themselves for physical labor. Waitresses get paid the same regardless of what people order. They are selling themselves to their employer.

Give me a break. Waitresses are offering up what's on the menu. You look at the menu and the waitress takes your order and brings you the food. Quite different from an illicit arrangement where some perv gives her money at which point she disrobes and acts why he bangs her for a buck. It's freaking ridiculous to compare the two. As far as I'm concerned if your defense for whoring is that it's just like being a waitress or a girlfriend or a wife then you've got no defense at all.
 
I never said the JOBS were exactly the same. Obviously being a cop is different than being a fireman. What I DID state was the same is the FACT that in EVERY SINGLE JOB you are 'selling yourself'. If you consider prostitution to be 'selling yourself', then it logically follows that one is selling themselves in ANY profession and thus makes said 'point' a moot point.

I ditto that.
 
Actually I would argue that a waitress is selling themeselves to the customers since they live on tips.

Some make tips, some do not. I've worked waitressing jobs where you did not make tips.

Regardless, their WAGE is the same no matter what food is ordered. They are employed by the owner of the restaurant they work for. They have sold their bodies to their employer to be used as serving wenches for customers.
 
Yeah selling the right for some stranger to penetrate you is exactly the same as bringing someone a freaking hamburger. :roll:

I guess you guys won this one. Fantastic debating. Intellectual dishonesty is the best way to end a debate. :2wave:
 
Give me a break. Waitresses are offering up what's on the menu. You look at the menu and the waitress takes your order and brings you the food. Quite different from an illicit arrangement where some perv gives her money at which point she disrobes and acts why he bangs her for a buck. It's freaking ridiculous to compare the two. As far as I'm concerned if your defense for whoring is that it's just like being a waitress or a girlfriend or a wife then you've got no defense at all.

She's being paid to bring someone food. She's paid by her employer to bring someone food. To dress in a specific manner - dictated by her employer, behave in a specific manner - dictated by her employer, come to work at a specific time and work specific hours - dictated by her employer. Some asshole pervs come into the restaurant and demand that she bring them whatever they want, and no matter how much she hates them, how disgusting she thinks they are... she MUST smile, put on an act, pretend to be some cheery sweetheart, bow to their whims and rush back and forth at their beck and call (using her legs, arms, hands, and mouth - to talk and smile). And you want to sit there and try and tell me that she's not selling herself? That she's not selling the use of her body? Seriously?

They aren't offering what's on the menu. They're offering themselves to SERVE what's on the menu.
 
Yeah selling the right for some stranger to penetrate you is exactly the same as bringing someone a freaking hamburger. :roll:

I guess you guys won this one. Fantastic debating. Intellectual dishonesty is the best way to end a debate. :2wave:

Wow, this thread is still going strong! Talloullou, could you PM those links you posted? I want to get a look at them, but don't want to wade through 30+ pages of posts to find them.

As to the waitress - prostitute comparison, obviously the particulars of the job are different. As Rivrrat said, the particulars of any two jobs are different. But the fact is a prostitute is selling a service just like any other worker. Yes that service involves her body, but our bodies are involved in any possible profession. I don't know of a single job where you can do absolutely nothing and get paid for it. In those very general terms there is absolutely no difference between prostitution and any other job. Other than the service provided, tell me what the difference is between a prostitute and any other service worker. The particulars are objectionable to many people, but the general concept of using your body to perform a service for another person in exchange for money is the foundation of almost all labor and service employment.

Now I will readily admit the prostitute's service is an intimate one, or at least a vast majority of people would consider it a deeply intimate and personal act. However, if the prostitute doesn't have a problem with it, who are we to say otherwise? The argument for prostitution is pretty simple in my mind.

1) The prostitute is a consenting adult who chose that profession.
2) The customer is a willing client who desires the prostitute's services.
3) They agree on a price for said services.
4) No one is harmed by this exchange.

Where is the justification for making it illegal? For those supporting a legal ban on prostitution tell me how you or society are harmed by an act of legal prostitution. Morality is irrelevant in my mind. Potential side affects like human trafficing are unfortunate, but can be dealt with without banning prostitution. Plenty of industries drive up demand for cheap illegal labor, but we don't propose banning them to combat illegal immigration. Talloullou, you haven't responded to this comparison and told me how the prostitution/trafficing link is different than the cheap labor/illegal immigration link and why it warrants such draconian measures.
 
Again, you are not selling your penis or your vagina or your hand if you are a prostitute. Not any more than you are selling body parts if you use them to work in any other profession.

I think we get what you are saying, and we don't agree. That's the difference, we see it more literally, and you see it more figuratively.

And prostitution is only degrading to someone if THEY think it is. What is degrading is subjective. Personally, I find waitressing to be one of the most degrading jobs I've ever performed. THAT was FAR more degrading than prostitution could ever dream of being. Regardless, if someone wants to engage in a profession that someone else happens to find degrading (like waitressing), then who has the right to tell them they can't? No one. And, just because someone feels that a profession is degrading is no reason to keep or make it illegal.
So, whether or not you or anyone else finds the profession degrading is quite irrelevant.

If the majority of people in this country feel it should remain illegal then it's gonna stay illegal, if not it won't.

There are waitresses that love the work, and make good tips at it. It's a service job.
It's true that some may be able to disassociate the act from degradation and this would be best for them if they really hate it. You can look at many, many jobs as degrading, so it's kinda whatever you want to pick.

But see, that's the thing... It's never free. For anyone. If you don't go to a pro, then you have to find someone and convince them to have sex with you. Spend money and time on them. It's never free.

Now you're talking semantics, and noone will ever win with your connotation of free.

It's just that some people (prostitutes and their clients) are the ones that are honest about that fact.

Not if the spouse or girlfriend finds out. Not sure what the response was to here and don't want to go back to look.

It already is just like any other job. Some people just like to keep their head in the sand.

We've explained what our definition of it is, and how it differes. I'd say most of the guys here will readily admit that if their wives or GF's found out they went to a prostitute that would essentially end the relationship, so I don't get where it's the same as being a waitress, but ok, and even when it's legal I'm thinking most Significant Other's won't say it's the same as any other harmless relationship. Course I realize this would happen with any form of cheating, but that penis or vagina is going to be the cause for a lot of hurt for being so innocent.
 
Talloullou, you haven't responded to this comparison and told me how the prostitution/trafficing link is different than the cheap labor/illegal immigration link and why it warrants such draconian measures.

This is where draconian is actually smarter than we smart people are. They knew prostituion was a bad thing and they didn't need to have a million reasons why, they just knew. The generations before us all knew this. They knew prostitution probably has it's place, but you start to give it an air of respectability and then society starts to think just about anything and everything is respectable, then you have no rules, and you can just pull all the bricks out cause nobody will care about anything, so all the other "little" sins t'aint nothing t'all.

Prostitution just ain't right and that's really are thar is to it. For the biggest part of it, it's already legal with pornography, why do ya'll want to go and get greedy with it.
 
I think we get what you are saying, and we don't agree. That's the difference, we see it more literally, and you see it more figuratively.
Obviously you don't agree, but it has nothing to do with literal and figurative. Your position is based in emotion and mine is based on logic. I can specifically state how and why prostitution should be legal in a logical and consistent fashion. I can draw logical and consistent parallels. What you and others do for your position is just say "No it's different", but give no logical reason WHY prostitution is different than any other job with regard to "selling oneself".


If the majority of people in this country feel it should remain illegal then it's gonna stay illegal, if not it won't.
Incorrect. Many things have been decriminalized or criminalized against the majority opinion.

There are waitresses that love the work, and make good tips at it. It's a service job.
It's true that some may be able to disassociate the act from degradation and this would be best for them if they really hate it. You can look at many, many jobs as degrading, so it's kinda whatever you want to pick.
Indeed it is "whatever you want to pick" which makes the "it's degrading" argument against legal prostitution pretty moot. That was my entire point and I'm glad you agree.

Now you're talking semantics, and noone will ever win with your connotation of free.
Yes yes I know. If you buy a girl drinks in a bar, or take her to dinner or buy her gifts, or pay for her apartment... that's so different than just handing her cash. :roll:

Not if the spouse or girlfriend finds out. Not sure what the response was to here and don't want to go back to look.
Has nothing to do with any spouse or girlfriend (if they exist). Has everything to do with a guy being honest about what he wants, and a woman being honest about what he has to do to get it.

We've explained what our definition of it is, and how it differes. I'd say most of the guys here will readily admit that if their wives or GF's found out they went to a prostitute that would essentially end the relationship, so I don't get where it's the same as being a waitress, but ok, and even when it's legal I'm thinking most Significant Other's won't say it's the same as any other harmless relationship. Course I realize this would happen with any form of cheating, but that penis or vagina is going to be the cause for a lot of hurt for being so innocent.
This is irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Obviously you don't agree, but it has nothing to do with literal and figurative. Your position is based in emotion and mine is based on logic. I can specifically state how and why prostitution should be legal in a logical and consistent fashion. I can draw logical and consistent parallels. What you and others do for your position is just say "No it's different", but give no logical reason WHY prostitution is different than any other job with regard to "selling oneself".

Yours is circular logic to my way of thinking. You keep repeating the waitress comparison to prostition, over and over, but when we say they are different, you say no, they are the same thing. You say the waitress is selling her feet, or her hands to accomodate a service for food or drinks. Firstly, food and drinks are a necessity for life. You gotta have them to survive. Sex is a take it or leave it thing. Nobody on earth has to have sex with another human to survive. Sex has a lot of operatives that go on with it. Some people have to feel emotion with it, some don't. Some want a commitment, some don't. Some eventually want a kid because of it, some don't. The kid issue is the huge issue, and this cannot be denied. Sex causes kids. This is the actual purpose for sex. You can deny this, but it's biological that the reasons humans are made up the way they are is to attract the opposite sex to have sex and then make a baby. As long as sex is necessary for making children prostitution is going to be ostracized. This is also what makes it sacred. It's had a sacredness since the beginnings of time. You can have fun with it, but the fun is so you'll make a baby.

Incorrect. Many things have been decriminalized or criminalized against the majority opinion.

This is true, but prostitution has been legal in Neveda a long time and it's not overun with legal prostitutes, and even has illegal ones. I was saying all prostitutes would be flocking to Neveda for the "trade" and they haven't. It's not that lucrative for most, so why bother with the hassle, plus it's messy and awkward. yikk!

Indeed it is "whatever you want to pick" which makes the "it's degrading" argument against legal prostitution pretty moot. That was my entire point and I'm glad you agree.

I still think it's a degrading profession for women because they are the one's being penetrated. Women are being dominated when they are being penetrated. I don't see how anyone can see it any differently. It's how men and women are made. Yes, they can also give blow-jobs, but here again, whose mouth is being penetrated?

Yes yes I know. If you buy a girl drinks in a bar, or take her to dinner or buy her gifts, or pay for her apartment... that's so different than just handing her cash.

Buying someone a drink to socialize and get to know them is not buying them something to get sex with, it's a social gesture of attraction, and the woman or man can reject it if they don't want it.

Has nothing to do with any spouse or girlfriend (if they exist). Has everything to do with a guy being honest about what he wants, and a woman being honest about what he has to do to get it.

People tend to be dishonest in most situations, so I'm not big on the honesty argument. Guys always want sex and women know this. It's how men are. It's not rocket science. First things Mom ever told you is, "they just want to get into your pants", or "keep it zipped up and in your pants".

This is irrelevant to the discussion.

That didn't need to be pointed out, and obviously I thought it was relevant, I took the time to type it.:(
 
This is where draconian is actually smarter than we smart people are. They knew prostituion was a bad thing and they didn't need to have a million reasons why, they just knew. The generations before us all knew this.

So we don't need reasons for our laws now? Just some sort of intuitive "knowing". I always though when we pass a law restricting the liberty of individuals we should have ... I dunno, maybe a reason and probably a pretty good one.

They knew prostitution probably has it's place, but you start to give it an air of respectability and then society starts to think just about anything and everything is respectable, then you have no rules, and you can just pull all the bricks out cause nobody will care about anything, so all the other "little" sins t'aint nothing t'all.

What's this? The classic slippery slope argument? Legalizing prostitution will lead to the breakdown of society? Strange that all those countries that have legalized it seem to have avoided that breakdown.

Prostitution just ain't right and that's really are thar is to it. For the biggest part of it, it's already legal with pornography, why do ya'll want to go and get greedy with it.

I agree there isn't much, if any, difference from prostitution and porn actors. So why aren't you moral majority advocates arguing against that? Its not a matter of being greedy, but asking for at least some consistency. The hypocricy of legalizing porn but not prostitution is astounding. They both involve sex for money, objectifying women, and all the moral reasons you guys are arguing are valid reasons for banning prostitution.
 
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