Selling sex legally in New Zealand

talloulou · Mar 17, 2009

winston53660 said:
I've already shown her how legality does not matter in the human sex trade. She does not care about the reality at hand. As long as "morality" is enforced via the state everything is fine and dandy in her opinion.

No you haven't. I've pointed out Israel, Germany, Amsterdam, etc to you. I've shown you that here the biggest importer of sex slaves is Nevada. You harped on the little tidbit that in Vegas it isn't legal. Big whoop. Men go to Vegas for prostitutes. It's a market there. An open market.

Amsterdam's human trafficking is so out of control they're back tracking and trying desperately to clean the place up by closing brothels down.

All you've done is say, "Look prostitution is illegal here and there's still human trafficking, " while IGNORING all the cases where prostitution was made legal and the effect was a rampant rise in trafficking all the while pretending that the supply/demand concept is completely lost on you.

rivrrat · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
Well the issue of this thread is legalizing prostitution. Legalizing it promotes a higher demand, cheapens the worth/value, and creates a fiercely more competitive market. When men have more choice they demand youth.

Legalizing it means the people participating are no longer criminals. They're able to seek help when they need it. THey're able to claim the income and pay their taxes. I don't give a hoot how much money they're able to make, that isn't the issue. The issue is freedom and safety.

We are talking about legalizing prostitution so I fail to see why you keep bringing up elite call girls which will have no place in a legalized setting. In a place like Ohio maybe some girl who isn't even all that good looking can get a few hundred off a guy as an independent contractor. Put that same girl in Amsterdam and she won't make enough to even live off. In legalized settings the girls are kept in lots, paid less, treated worse, and well who wants that lifestyle? Very few but the most desperate. Thus the trafficking.

That's not the case in brothels in Nevada. And I certainly wasn't working for an "elite service" when I started. I checked out the elite services, and I assure you... I didn't fit in. I didn't have the ****ing money to work for an elite service that required expensive wardrobes.

The reason I bring up my experience is precisely because it flies in the face of the misconceptions that you and others share about the business. You guys read some articles online and think you know everything there is to know. You read articles that are AIMED at misinforming you. They focus only on the lowest common denominator and ignore the majority of the people in the industry. THAT is why I bring up my experience.

I do not bring up my experience because I think prostitution should be legal so more women can make a bunch of money. The amount of money they'd make is irrelevant. What is relevant is freedom, liberty, safety for both the prostitutes and the clients, and destigmatizing the industry as a whole. I don't give a **** if they end up making minimum wage. That isn't the issue.

talloulou · Mar 17, 2009

winston53660 said:
Prove it. The demand is already there legal or not. I doubt the demand will change very much.

Maybe if prostitution became legal everywhere at once perhaps demand wouldn't change. But creating pockets of legalized prostitution means you import demand via tourists who come specifically for the sex trade and it most certainly does increase demand and furthermore it would defy common sense if it did not.

talloulou · Mar 17, 2009

rivrrat said:
Legalizing it means the people participating are no longer criminals. They're able to seek help when they need it. THey're able to claim the income and pay their taxes. I don't give a hoot how much money they're able to make, that isn't the issue. The issue is freedom and safety.

That's not the case in brothels in Nevada. And I certainly wasn't working for an "elite service" when I started. I checked out the elite services, and I assure you... I didn't fit in. I didn't have the ****ing money to work for an elite service that required expensive wardrobes.

The reason I bring up my experience is precisely because it flies in the face of the misconceptions that you and others share about the business. You guys read some articles online and think you know everything there is to know. You read articles that are AIMED at misinforming you. They focus only on the lowest common denominator and ignore the majority of the people in the industry. THAT is why I bring up my experience.

I do not bring up my experience because I think prostitution should be legal so more women can make a bunch of money. The amount of money they'd make is irrelevant. What is relevant is freedom, liberty, safety for both the prostitutes and the clients, and destigmatizing the industry as a whole. I don't give a **** if they end up making minimum wage. That isn't the issue.

Yeah but your experience is completely non-verifiable which you have to understand makes it sorta worthless. Anyone can be anyone on the internet.

TheNextEra · Mar 17, 2009

Marilyn Monroe said:
Maybe that's how you feel, but ask the rest of the world, and that's not the story you'll get.

Doesn't mean they are right though.

Marilyn Monroe said:
Waitressing is not having sex for money. Two different things. There is a service involved, but the services are quite different.

Regardless of the service, they are using the age ol method of "Sex Sells". You don't seem to have a problem with a pretty waitress flirting with patrons to get money, why do you have a problem with one that gives them what the want?

Marilyn Monroe said:
All the other jobs you could readily admit to, but bring up prostitution, and I would bet everybody clams up.

Only because of the taboo people in society puts on it.

Marilyn Monroe said:
I've never heard anybody say that's what they want to do when they grow up.

you may not have heard it, but ask many porn stars and strippers that are successful at it ask if they regret it and most say NO.

Marilyn Monroe said:
Prostitution is very low-class. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, it's still low-class. It can have a beautiful package, and even be educated, but in the end it is what it is and it ain't good or necessary.

Iit's only low class to people such as yourself. Others view it as a profession.

Marilyn Monroe said:
Anyone who works can be pitied. It's tough getting up doing 9 to 5.

So now we come to the real reason you hate these people. Jealousy, they can more than you on a 9 to 5 and you hate that.

Marilyn Monroe said:
Yes, they were.

Again, only to jealous types such as yourself.

Marilyn Monroe said:
This is probably how you have come to justify what you do.

It's how most in the buisness do it. They are getting PAID to do a job, just like anyone else would. You are just jealous they are getting paid more than you would.

Marilyn Monroe said:
Waitresses serve food and drinks. It's entirely different to have someone who you don't even know, enjoy something that is your own personal, highly cherished self for a few dollars. Not worth it in MHO. Unfortunate when you believe it is worth it.

Again, that is your personal opinion. When you go into a restaurant you order food and drink that you want. It is no different in a brothel, you order the sex you want.

The difference is you look down on a service you feel is immoral. Well guess what? Your immoral opinions don't matter to everyone.

talloulou · Mar 17, 2009

TheNextEra said:
you may not have heard it, but ask many porn stars and strippers that are successful at it ask if they regret it and most say NO.

Porn stars and strippers are a dime a dozen and rarely do they ever reach the heights of a Jenna Jameson Empire. Asking the "many porn stars and strippers that are successful..." is an impossibility because they're simply aren't "many" to be found that would qualify as successful.:roll:

rivrrat · Mar 17, 2009

Marilyn Monroe said:
Maybe that's how you feel, but ask the rest of the world, and that's not the story you'll get.

And they would be wrong too.

Waitressing is not having sex for money. Two different things. There is a service involved, but the services are quite different.

Yes yes... and being a firefighter is different than being a police officer. So let's make one of them illegal!

Yes the services are different, but they are services nonetheless.

All the other jobs you could readily admit to, but bring up prostitution, and I would bet everybody clams up.

Then that is their own problem.

I've never heard anybody say that's what they want to do when they grow up.

Never heard anyone say they want to be a ditch digger or fruit picker when they grow up either. And?

Prostitution is very low-class. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, it's still low-class. It can have a beautiful package, and even be educated, but in the end it is what it is and it ain't good or necessary.

Waitressing is very low class. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, it's still low-class. . It can have a beautiful package, and even be educated, but in the end it is what it is and it ain't good or necessary.

The thinking is the same just different age groups.

No, the thinking is not the same. On one hand you have consenting adults, and on the other... you don't.

Anyone who works can be pitied. It's tough getting up doing 9 to 5.

Indeed.

Yes, they were.

And just how were they insensitive? They did exactly what I asked of them.

This is probably how you have come to justify what you do.

I need no justification. Is there any reason to have sex other than to get off or get paid? Isn't getting paid to do something a way to use someone else to make money? Is that what capitalism is all about?

Waitresses serve food and drinks. It's entirely different to have someone who you don't even know, enjoy something that is your own personal, highly cherished self for a few dollars. Not worth it in MHO. Unfortunate when you believe it is worth it.

LOL And you don't think that customers - strangers - in restaurants or bars are enjoying the waitresses "highly cherished self" for a few dollars? What about someone getting a massage? Don't you think they enjoy using the masseuse for physical pleasure?

TheNextEra · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
Porn stars and strippers are a dime a dozen and rarely do they ever reach the heights of a Jenna Jameson Empire. Asking the "many porn stars and strippers that are successful..." is an impossibility because they're simply aren't "many" to be found that would qualify as successful.:roll:

Again, says you. There are quite many, otherwise there wouldn't be that many pornos floating around DAILY.

Simple fact is there is money to made in the industry.

I will admit many fail, just like many that try to start their own business that fail. But does that mean you should tell people never to start their own business because they can fail?

rivrrat · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
Yeah but your experience is completely non-verifiable which you have to understand makes it sorta worthless. Anyone can be anyone on the internet.

Well, the whole "being illegal" thing makes most prostitution "studies" unverifiable and purely conjecture based off a tiny percentage of people working in the minority segment of a vast industry.

In other words, it makes them pretty worthless.

winston53660 · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
No you haven't. I've pointed out Israel, Germany, Amsterdam, etc to you. I've shown you that here the biggest importer of sex slaves is Nevada. You harped on the little tidbit that in Vegas it isn't legal. Big whoop. Men go to Vegas for prostitutes. It's a market there. An open market.

Amsterdam's human trafficking is so out of control they're back tracking and trying desperately to clean the place up by closing brothels down.

All you've done is say, "Look prostitution is illegal here and there's still human trafficking, " while IGNORING all the cases where prostitution was made legal and the effect was a rampant rise in trafficking all the while pretending that the supply/demand concept is completely lost on you.

I've pointed out where sexual human trafficking is a problem in nations where prostitution is illegal. I've also pointed out nations where it is a problem and prostitution is legal.

It would be nice if you got off your soap box and actually proved a relationship between illegality and legality in regards to the human sex trade.

talloulou · Mar 17, 2009

TheNextEra said:
Again, says you. There are quite many, otherwise there wouldn't be that many pornos floating around DAILY.

Simple fact is there is money to made in the industry.

I will admit many fail, just like many that try to start their own business that fail. But does that mean you should tell people never to start their own business because they can fail?

You think the girls you're watching in porno flicks are making mad money? Seriously? They get paid squat. There isn't a one of them who wouldn't trade porno for a real acting gig without hesitation.

There's little money to be made in porno or the sex industry as a whole unless you are the supplier. There are people making money off porn but it's not the girl getting screwed.

TheNextEra · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
You think the girls you're watching in porno flicks are making mad money? Seriously? They get paid squat. There isn't a one of them who wouldn't trade porno for a real acting gig without hesitation.

And you speak for all porn stars? LOL the only way you could is if you were one of these girls. I doubt that is you, so how can you speak for everyone?

talloulou said:
There's little money to be made in porno or the sex industry as a whole unless you are the supplier. There are people making money off porn but it's not the girl getting screwed.

Actually there is great money to be made in the industry. I'm sorry the people you know only experience might have been with the girls gone wild guy lifting their top.

winston53660 · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
You think the girls you're watching in porno flicks are making mad money? Seriously? They get paid squat. There isn't a one of them who wouldn't trade porno for a real acting gig without hesitation.

There's little money to be made in porno or the sex industry as a whole unless you are the supplier. There are people making money off porn but it's not the girl getting screwed.

The same could could be said for DISNEY INC. I know animators that worked for him and they got diddly squat.

talloulou · Mar 17, 2009

winston53660 said:
I've pointed out where sexual human trafficking is a problem in nations where prostitution is illegal. I've also pointed out nations where it is problem where it prostitution is legal.

It would be nice if you got off your soap box and actually proved a relationship between illegality and legality in regards to the human sex trade.

Ok, well Amsterdam had more of a problem with human trafficking post legalization than prior to, same with Australia, etc. With even a little bit of googling on your own you'll see that it's true. Amsterdam's problems are well documented and often in the regular news. There are other nations that were considering legalization that have now backed off due to problems in Europe, Australia, Amsterdam, etc.

Again it IS A SUPPLY/DEMAND issue. Basic economics. The only way you wouldn't see an increase in human trafficking with legalization is if you legalized it everywhere all at once. Then the supply doesn't have to be moved around to meet the demand that also moves around via tourism. If tons of men are going to Amsterdam for whores Amsterdam is going to have trouble meeting the demand side of the equation. Thus the importing of sex slaves.

Psychoclown · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
Except again she doesn't always. There are many many countries dealing with human trafficking for sex slaves. This idea that you can go to Amsterdam and pay a prostitute who voluntarily prostitutes herself isn't always true. You as the customer, won't know if she's voluntarily doing it or not.

But we're not talking about sex slaves. We're talking about legal prostitution. Legalized prostitution does not legalize human trafficing or sex slavery. The two issues maybe linked, but they are not the same. We can have legalized prostitution and crack down on human trafficing. They are not mutually exclusive actions. You have yet to tell me why both can't be done.

I consider any exploitation of women a womens rights issue.

So do you support legally abolishing burkas? Many folks (myself included) would consider that a gross infringement of religious rights.

No actually whores who are independent contractors fair far better when prostitution is illegal. The "supply" is lower and not as accessible so men pay more. When made legal women are usually housed up together in lots, paid less, and forced to work in brothel type settings. Why go seek out some independent whore who works on her own when you can go pick out a woman from a group of 15 women? Or visit a street that has numerous brothels each with large lots of women in them? The folks who make out the best in those scenarios are the brothel owners. The women are forced into a more competitive atmosphere, the expectation for younger women is higher, and the women make way less money.

Independent contractors or high class call girls may take a hit, the the Bunny Ranch does quite well with its legal but high paid hookers. However, streetwalker types would certainly get a better deal. I'm sure they'd take home more money and work in better enviroments than they do now.

Sex should not be a "transaction." Intimacy is not business.

Strictly a moral or personal judgment and has no place in a legal discussion.

winston53660 · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
Ok, well Amsterdam had more of a problem with human trafficking post legalization than prior to, same with Australia, .

Link Please.

Psychoclown · Mar 17, 2009

talloulou said:
Ok, well Amsterdam had more of a problem with human trafficking post legalization than prior to, same with Australia, etc. With even a little bit of googling on your own you'll see that it's true. Amsterdam's problems are well documented and often in the regular news. There are other nations that were considering legalization that have now backed off due to problems in Europe, Australia, Amsterdam, etc.

Again it IS A SUPPLY/DEMAND issue. Basic economics. The only way you wouldn't see an increase in human trafficking with legalization is if you legalized it everywhere all at once. Then the supply doesn't have to be moved around to meet the demand that also moves around via tourism. If tons of men are going to Amsterdam for whores Amsterdam is going to have trouble meeting the demand side of the equation. Thus the importing of sex slaves.

I do have to say this. You shown a correlation between legalizing prostition and an increase in human trafficing. You have not show causation. The two are different. It is possible there are other unaccounted for variables that allow for the strong correlation without legalized prostitution being the cause for the increase.

I haven't studied the issue and have now idea what they could be. I'd say the two are probably linked going by my intuitive common sense if the numbers you're posting are accurate. But strictly speaking correlation does not prove causation.

Again, I'm not saying what you are saying false. Intuititively it makes sense. But correlation is not unquestionable scientific truth.

winston53660 · Mar 17, 2009

Psychoclown said:
I do have to say this. You shown a correlation between legalizing prostition and an increase in human trafficing. You have not show causation. The two are different. It is possible there are other unaccounted for variables that allow for the strong correlation without legalized prostitution being the cause for the increase.

I haven't studied the issue and have now idea what they could be. I'd say the two are probably linked going by my intuitive common sense if the numbers you're posting are accurate. But strictly speaking correlation does not prove causation.

Again, I'm not saying what you are saying false. Intuititively it makes sense. But correlation is not unquestionable scientific truth.

OKay maybe I missed the link

talloulou · Mar 17, 2009

winston53660 said:
Link Please.

"The Netherlands is an interesting example because in the last decade or so they've come full circle, from their position in 2000 to the position they're in now," she told politics.co.uk

"They've closed half the businesses since 2006 because of an exponential rise in organised crime and money laundering and also the trafficking of children and women, particularly from countries such as the UK.

"Once they legalised prostitution it became a Mecca for sex tourism.

"Local women in prostitution weren't in a position to satisfy demand so a vacuum developed which the traffickers filled," she explained.

It is, in effect, a failed experiment. Legalisation is just an endorsement for harm for people working in the sex industry."

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/autocodes/countries/netherlands/govt-minister-in-amsterdam-prostitution-advice-$1228315.htm

So what about that Red Light District anyway? I have news for you, folks. It didn't work. Several years after lifting the ban on brothels, Amsterdam's Mayor Job Cohen admits that, while the law was created for voluntary prostitution, "these days we see trafficking of women, exploitation and all kinds of criminal activity."

End Human Trafficking - Change.org: Amsterdam's Red Light District Wears Out Its Welcome

The mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, said that although prostitution was legal in the Netherlands, there was too much of the sex trade in the city centre.

He also said that the trade involved exploitation and trafficking of women, and other kinds of criminal activity.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Amsterdam to cut back on brothels

Orion · Mar 17, 2009

Jerry said:
Even assuming she handled her finances correctly (being debt free except the mortgage, emergency fund which could support her for 6-12 month, taking a 15 year loan with 20% down, etc), assuming she couldn't take out a second mortgage on any existing equity, the most appropriate action here is to sell the home and rent until she gets back on her feet; not become a prostitute.

Whether or not she should have supplemented her income that way is not the point. Prostitution is part of the job market and should be treated as such, and workers should have the freedom to go down that road if they so choose.

Good for New Zealand.

talloulou · Mar 17, 2009

Causes
There are many causes of human trafficking to Australia. Project Respect argues that the demand for trafficked women in Australia is fueled by: 1) a lack of women in Australia prepared to do prostitution; 2) 'customer' demand for women seen as compliant; 3) 'customer' demand for women who they can be violent towards; and 4) racialized ideas that Asian women have certain qualities, for example that they are more compliant and will accept higher levels of violence.5

HumanTrafficking.org | Australia

Psychoclown · Mar 18, 2009

"Project Respect argues that the demand for trafficked women in Australia is fueled by ..."

Bolding is mine. Argues is not proof. I haven't read the link or any of your links, but I'll check them out tomorrow and maybe do a little research of my own if I can. Most of what you have posted has been correlation - country X legalized prostitution and then experienced an upswing in human trafficing. Its theorized or argued that legalized prostitution is the cause of this upswing, but has it been proven? There are plenty of variables that could affect both the legal status of prostitution and the flow of human trafficing.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. Its a intuititive and sensible theory, but I am saying that correlation does not prove causation. A classic example would be the following:

Blacks have a higher criminal rate than whites in America. Therefor there is a correlation between being black and being a criminal. But being black does not cause criminal behavior. The variables that have causation are things like economic status and education levels. Blacks have lower education levels and higher rates of poverty which in turn fuel their higher criminal rate. Race has nothing to do with it.

Sometimes correlation is the best you can get in study. Some variables cannot ethicially be controlled, tested, or eliminated, so we make do with correlation. But we always have to remember that correlation does not equal causation.

But still have not explained why we cannot crack down on human trafficing and have legalized prostitution. You seem to argue that they are mutally exclusive when they are not.

talloulou · Mar 18, 2009

I understand the argument. Just cause women get raped more during the months they eat ice cream doesn't mean ice cream is the cause of rapes. I think that particular example comes from Galen. :mrgreen:

But in this case the causation factor is common sense. If prostitution was legalized everywhere in the world all at once then legalization would not cause an influx of crime and human trafficking. It's when you create little "sin cities" so to speak that you have problems. Little dens of legalized prostitution cause men who live outside those areas to infiltrate for a little sex tourism. The demand for prostitutes rises to levels that can't be sustained within the community with willing native women. Rather than just loose out on all that tourist dough suppliers go out of their way to find ways to meet demand which means importing sex slaves.

It's not the prostitution itself, it's the "pockets of legalized open prostitution" that draw in a higher demand.

I think it's pretty sound and so do other nations as they back off legalization prostitution after monitoring the effects it has had in other nations.

Jerry · Mar 18, 2009

Orius said:
Whether or not she should have supplemented her income that way is not the point.

No no, that's the entire point.

The article selected a single working woman under financial stress for a reason: to assume the debate posture of 'defend the victim'.

Orius said:
Prostitution is part of the job market and should be treated as such, and workers should have the freedom to go down that road if they so choose.

Good for New Zealand.

That's some quality :spin: you have there :2wave:

Orion · Mar 18, 2009

Jerry said:
No no, that's the entire point.

The article selected a single working woman under financial stress for a reason: to assume the debate posture of 'defend the victim'.

I wasn't really defending the victim, just the idea that a person should be able to work in this industry as part of the job market without suffering legal consequences.

Jerry said:
That's some quality :spin: you have there :2wave:

Since you haven't elaborated on why you think it's a spin, I'll take this as an ad hom and nothing more.

:2wave:

Selling sex legally in New Zealand

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