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Thread: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Sure. I'm sure you can put up any number of career choices and folks would move them around and rank them differently. But the one thing that would remain relatively consistent is that "whore" would be the bottom of the barrel in most every ranking system.
    Not every prostitute is a crack head "whore" just as not every auto mechanic is working on a NASCAR racing team.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Not every prostitute is a crack head "whore" just as not every auto mechanic is working on a NASCAR racing team.
    No I'm sure there are all types. Legalization generally brings a demand for younger gals. Underage girls. Men who purchase prostitutes are far more concerned about demanding a girl look young vs. making sure a girl is of legal age. Since their customer base tends to be so immoral it's all but impossible for the "career" choice to ever break free from its seedy reputation. There's too many women who have no respect for men who would purchase sex that way as well as no respect for the women who offer sex for sale.

    You can spin it every which way till Sunday. There's no such thing as a highly respected whore because the purpose she serves is base and carnal.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    I guess I just view consenting sexual exchanges as exchanges where two people freely decide to have sex.

    When you involve money there's a coercion factor. Money might seem a more palatable force than a physical struggle but it is still taking something, sex, which should ultimately be a freely given exchange between equals.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn Monroe View Post
    I think you're probably just another male who thinks exploiting women is ok. You think it's ok even though a good many of them are drug addicts. The supposed call girls I've seen don't really like it, they hate men from what I can tell or are lesbians. There may be a few with high IQ's, but mainly they aren't extremely bright.
    So now I'm a sexist pig. Thanks for the irrelevant personal attack, that really strengthened your argument. Well I think you're a femi-nazi lesbian who's probably too ugly to ever get a man so you tell yourself you hate sex and men. See two can play this game. I can make nonsensical and irrelevant personal attacks about a person I've never met too

    You assumed other countries were doing fine with it and I provided an interesting article. I see no other angle with the debate with you.
    I assumed they didn't suffer a complete breakdown in morality as you implied legalizing prostitution would lead to when you gave us your version of the classic slippery slope argument saying:

    but you start to give it an air of respectability and then society starts to think just about anything and everything is respectable, then you have no rules, and you can just pull all the bricks out cause nobody will care about anything, so all the other "little" sins t'aint nothing t'all.
    I feel it's a male domination enterprise and this is why so many men are all for it, and then of course the occasional supposed call-girl. Give me a few prostitutes off the streets that are somewhat literate and let's see what they say about it. I think most of the street prostitutes are too dumb or doped up to hold a regular job, if you don't think prostitution is exploitation on them I don't know what is. Just because someone consents doesn't mean they are all there, or have their senses, or even have a means to do anything else. I say, gimme a break.
    I'm pretty sure the original articule had a few quotes from prostitutes who seemed pretty literate and all there to me ...

    Lucy works in Bon Ton, an exclusive establishment in the capital where an hour-long session costs NZ$400 (140; $200). She says the reform has given her the opportunity to work for a legitimate business in a safe environment.

    "I make twice what I was earning in retail. I am appreciated by customers and my boss. I can work whenever I want to - it's by far the most gratifying work I've ever had," she says.
    Anna Reed says she loved working as a prostitute - "I had sex, money and men!" - and resents enduring cliches about a job no-one in her right mind could willingly embrace.

    "We get so pissed off when politicians portray us as victims," she says.

    "It's important to blow down the stereotypes about sex workers - particularly that of the poor girl who is coerced into doing it."
    You're telling me these women are being exploited, but are too stupid or drugged up to realize it? Its not possible they for whatever reason have a different outlook than you and not only choose this job, but enjoy it?

    Arguing that prostitution is inherently exploitive is ridiculous when examples can easily be produced showing people who do not feel exploited in the slightest.
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Because in many ways we live in a class based society. The dr. might get more respect than the auto mechanic. The teacher more than the waitress. But there can be nothing lower on the career ladder than whore, for a female. Serving the seedy underbelly of humanity in the most shallow superficial banal way possible. Pimps, whores, drug dealers, etc all a class of their own at the bottom of the barrel.
    So what happens when you remove whore from the possible career choices? Something else is now at the bottom and is that then significant justification to legally ban that profession? According to this logic, we'd end up banning a lot of professions after a while.

    If you're arguing that prostitution is a crappy job. That's not a job most peopel would desire. That most people find it degrading. I won't argue with that. But I don't see that as being anywhere close to being sufficient reasoning to legally ban it.

    Public policy shouldn't be based on personal preferences. It should be based on consistent logic that preserves liberty and the common good. You were doing much better focusing on the human trafficing issues and other possible externalities associated with legalized prostitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I guess I just view consenting sexual exchanges as exchanges where two people freely decide to have sex.

    When you involve money there's a coercion factor. Money might seem a more palatable force than a physical struggle but it is still taking something, sex, which should ultimately be a freely given exchange between equals.
    So when I paid for that Subway sandwich yesterday, I coerced that poor girl into making it for me?
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    There's no exploitation factor involved in making you a sandwich. She will not be looked down on in society for selling subway sandwiches at some point in her life. If she were to choose to become involved in an intimate relationship with a man at some point the fact that she made sandwiches as subway for money will not in anyway tarnish her. The fact that she was a paid whore just might. You're asking her to sell something to you for a buck that is usually reserved as an intimate act exchanged freely between two consenting adults. There's no "product" being sold. You aren't actually buying anything. You're using money to exploit her into having an "exchange" with you that she wouldn't consent to in the absence of needing a dollar.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    There's no exploitation factor involved in making you a sandwich
    Other than the money why make the Subway sandwich?

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Other than the money why make the Subway sandwich?
    The sandwich is made for money, the product is sold. There's nothing wrong with selling products or even services that aren't normally somewhat reserved in civil societies. Sex is an exchange. The one person is having sex just as much as the other person is having sex. It's not like you pay a whore for sex and you get sex and she doesn't. You both engage in sex. Sex as an exchange should not involve force/coercion/bribes etc. It should be freely given between consenting adults. Anything else is exploitation. When you pay for sex you aren't buying anything so much as you're coercing the consent. The sandwich maker makes and sells you a sandwich. The massage therapist gives you a massage which is quite different from sex. Sex can not be given it is had. Had between peoples. It is an exchange. Not a "service" or a "product." You can't have sex with someone without them also having sex with you. It's an exchange that requires consent. What you are paying for with prostitution in reality is the "consent." There's something immoral about buying "consent" that doesn't exist on the menu at Subway.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    The sandwich is made for money, the product is sold. There's nothing wrong with selling products or even services that aren't normally somewhat reserved in civil societies. Sex is an exchange.
    And making a sandwich for money isn't?

    After all the most primal carnal need of humankind is nutrition. And that has to happen before sex ever will.

    It should be freely given between consenting adults.
    Free love? Nice idea but it just does not quite work out as the 60's demonstrated.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    The sandwich is made for money, the product is sold. There's nothing wrong with selling products or even services that aren't normally somewhat reserved in civil societies. Sex is an exchange. The one person is having sex just as much as the other person is having sex. It's not like you pay a whore for sex and you get sex and she doesn't. You both engage in sex. Sex as an exchange should not involve force/coercion/bribes etc. It should be freely given between consenting adults. Anything else is exploitation. When you pay for sex you aren't buying anything so much as you're coercing the consent. The sandwich maker makes and sells you a sandwich. The massage therapist gives you a massage which is quite different from sex. Sex can not be given it is had. Had between peoples. It is an exchange. Not a "service" or a "product." You can't have sex with someone without them also having sex with you. It's an exchange that requires consent. What you are paying for with prostitution in reality is the "consent." There's something immoral about buying "consent" that doesn't exist on the menu at Subway.
    And when people paid me to take them down the river, I couldn't perform that service without going down the river myself. So, your point is... what, exactly? My taking them down the river was an exchange? So it should be illegal too? Because I must have been "coerced" due to getting paid?
    Last edited by rivrrat; 03-22-09 at 06:10 PM.

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