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Thread: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

  1. #381
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn Monroe View Post
    Yours is circular logic to my way of thinking. You keep repeating the waitress comparison to prostition, over and over, but when we say they are different, you say no, they are the same thing. You say the waitress is selling her feet, or her hands to accomodate a service for food or drinks. Firstly, food and drinks are a necessity for life. You gotta have them to survive. Sex is a take it or leave it thing. Nobody on earth has to have sex with another human to survive.
    I could use ANY profession. I chose waitressing because I particularly loathe it. YOu could substitute any profession for waitressing though.

    Sex has a lot of operatives that go on with it. Some people have to feel emotion with it, some don't. Some want a commitment, some don't. Some eventually want a kid because of it, some don't. The kid issue is the huge issue, and this cannot be denied. Sex causes kids. This is the actual purpose for sex. You can deny this, but it's biological that the reasons humans are made up the way they are is to attract the opposite sex to have sex and then make a baby. As long as sex is necessary for making children prostitution is going to be ostracized. This is also what makes it sacred. It's had a sacredness since the beginnings of time. You can have fun with it, but the fun is so you'll make a baby.
    Blah blah, sex is for procreation, blah blah

    That's an argument for reasons for YOU not to have casual sex. It's not, however, an argument against prostitution.


    This is true, but prostitution has been legal in Neveda a long time and it's not overun with legal prostitutes, and even has illegal ones. I was saying all prostitutes would be flocking to Neveda for the "trade" and they haven't. It's not that lucrative for most, so why bother with the hassle, plus it's messy and awkward. yikk!
    It's been legal in one county in Nevada. And why would all prostitutes flock to Nevada for the trade? I like drugs, but if they made drugs legal in Nevada, I wouldn't just up and ****ing move there.

    And still, not an argument against legal prostitution.

    I still think it's a degrading profession for women because they are the one's being penetrated. Women are being dominated when they are being penetrated. I don't see how anyone can see it any differently. It's how men and women are made. Yes, they can also give blow-jobs, but here again, whose mouth is being penetrated?
    So then you must think it's degrading for women to EVER have sex with anyone for any reason. After all, they're always penetrated.

    And still... not an argument against legal prostitution.

    Buying someone a drink to socialize and get to know them is not buying them something to get sex with, it's a social gesture of attraction, and the woman or man can reject it if they don't want it.
    And a prostitute can reject a client's money if they don't want it.

    But yes, a guy buying a girl a drink under the pretense of "getting to know her" when all he cares about is getting laid, IS paying them.

    And once more, no argument against legal prostitution.

    That didn't need to be pointed out, and obviously I thought it was relevant, I took the time to type it.
    I'm not sure how potential jealousy in personal relationships is relevant to a discussion about professional relationships of prostitution.

    And still in all of that, no logical argument against legal prostitution.

  2. #382
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Bring it on! Anything would be better than personal attacks without any point or counterpoint to debate. You've been in this thread since the the start and I don't recall any of your posts sharing this data.
    Don't worry... all Jerry does is post some statistics and says he's made his argument. He never offers any logical, consistent, or well thought out discussion regarding it. Just links to studies that sample a tiny percentage of prostitutes who work in the minority sector of a vast industry. In other words, nothing of consequence. It's why I bowed out of the so-called "debate" we had on the subject. He offered no debate.

  3. #383
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    So we don't need reasons for our laws now? Just some sort of intuitive "knowing". I always though when we pass a law restricting the liberty of individuals we should have ... I dunno, maybe a reason and probably a pretty good one.
    I can't believe you got thanked for this load of naivete.

    Read this article on what Sweden did about it's prostitution problem. Ok, firstly, they legalized it, but then they decided in 1999, I believe, to criminalize the buyer of the sex (the males), and educate the prostitutes in other areas of employment. According to this article other countries that have legalized it haven't been successful with their legalization. Just read it and see what you think.

    http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

    What's this? The classic slippery slope argument? Legalizing prostitution will lead to the breakdown of society? Strange that all those countries that have legalized it seem to have avoided that breakdown.
    Are you sure?

    I agree there isn't much, if any, difference from prostitution and porn actors. So why aren't you moral majority advocates arguing against that? Its not a matter of being greedy, but asking for at least some consistency. The hypocricy of legalizing porn but not prostitution is astounding. They both involve sex for money, objectifying women, and all the moral reasons you guys are arguing are valid reasons for banning prostitution.
    Porn is already legal is it not? It's the 1st Amendment, so it can't be done.
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  4. #384
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I could use ANY profession. I chose waitressing because I particularly loathe it. YOu could substitute any profession for waitressing though.
    I'd have to think most prostitutes probably hate their jobs as much as waitresses do.

    Blah blah, sex is for procreation, blah blah
    Yep, that's it's primary purpose for the 15 to 50 crowd.

    That's an argument for reasons for YOU not to have casual sex. It's not, however, an argument against prostitution.
    No, it's why I think people are against legalizing it. I didn't mention casual sex.

    It's been legal in one county in Nevada. And why would all prostitutes flock to Nevada for the trade? I like drugs, but if they made drugs legal in Nevada, I wouldn't just up and ****ing move there.
    You sure it's just one? From Wiki-pedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_brothels_in_Nevada

    And still, not an argument against legal prostitution.
    You know why I think it should stay illegal? Because it's the type of thing that nusances are made of. It brings in an element with it. People who go to prostitutes usually do other annoying things. Prostitutes are an eyesore all by themselves, with the clothing, the make-up, a lot of the trashy, loud talking, the public displays. So if you legalize it you're going to have to try and enforce all the other crappy behavior that goes with it, plus, you'll still have the illegal hoes to boot. Gimme a good reason we actually need to give this particular group their "rights".

    So then you must think it's degrading for women to EVER have sex with anyone for any reason. After all, they're always penetrated.
    It's a profession where women aren't held in high esteem, plus they are always dominated. There's no real possibility for advancement.

    And still... not an argument against legal prostitution.
    Gimme a list of all the good it will do for society.

    And a prostitute can reject a client's money if they don't want it
    How about all the prostitutes that get killed, so they don't have to be paid? A lot of prostitutes end up on the sides of roads. Would legalizing it, stop this? I don't think it would.

    But yes, a guy buying a girl a drink under the pretense of "getting to know her" when all he cares about is getting laid, IS paying them.
    Not if he doesn't get laid. Buying a drink is buying a drink. We know what motivates some people, but this isn't always the case, either.

    I'm not sure how potential jealousy in personal relationships is relevant to a discussion about professional relationships of prostitution.
    I think it was bringing up the harm that prostitutes can do, and how people perceive the "occupation".

    And still in all of that, no logical argument against legal prostitution.
    I think the nusance issue is a pretty good reason. It's already a nusance, and it would remain so even it it went legal.
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  5. #385
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn Monroe View Post
    I can't believe you got thanked for this load of naivete.

    Read this article on what Sweden did about it's prostitution problem. Ok, firstly, they legalized it, but then they decided in 1999, I believe, to criminalize the buyer of the sex (the males), and educate the prostitutes in other areas of employment. According to this article other countries that have legalized it haven't been successful with their legalization. Just read it and see what you think.

    Sweden's Prostitution Solution: Why Hasn't Anyone Tried
    Interesting article. Allow me to share a few thoughts ...

    "In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them."
    So paying a woman for a service she is willingly providing is now exploitation? Damn, I better apologize to girl at Subway who made my sandwich, the cashier at Wal-mart who checked me out, the cashier at Speedway that rang up my gas purchase, and the waitress at TGIF who took my order. Apparently I exploited all of them and didn't even know it. I thought I was engaging in commerce. I know you're going to say, "but prostitution is different!" but tell me how. But please tell me how. How does prostitution differ from the service for cash forumla that all jobs are based on?

    Seriously this has to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in a long time. Sex slavery and human trafficing - those are forms of exploitation. They may be linked to prostitution, but are not the same as prostitution.
    I know anecdotal evidence isn't the best, but I do think it says something that we have an admitted (and even proud) former prostitute in this thread saying she did not feel even slightly exploited. Clearly not all prostitution is a form of violence against women, unless you think rivrrat lacks the mental capacity to recognize when she's been violated.

    Legalization and/or regulation of prostitution, according to the study, led to:

    A dramatic increase in all facets of the sex industry,
    So? If its a legal industry, why is there a complaint if it grows? Hardly a negative consequence unless you have a problem with the sex industry as a whole, in which case you have a huge bias in the issue and aren't the best person or organization to study the issue objectively. I don't know anything about the University of London or the people who led this particular study, but listing an increase in the overall sex industry as a negative consequence makes me wonder about their objectivity.

    A dramatic increase in the involvement of organized crime in the sex industry,
    Curious about this, since its highly counter intuitive that legalizing something would increase criminal involvement. However, even if it is true this can be dealt with through increased enforcement against organized crime. Heck, we could even use all those former vice cops and their funding to do it!

    A dramatic increase in child prostitution.
    Since they keep using the word dramatic, I'm curious how dramatic it is. Still, this like the above outcome can be combated through increased enforcement of existing laws. We could even write new laws with tougher penalties and closing loop holes that may exist.

    An explosion in the number of foreign women and girls trafficked into the region.
    As with the two points above, increase law enforcement efforts in this area, reform our laws if needed, and deal with the problem. Again though they use colorful if not outright incindiary language like "explosion in number" without giving us the actual numbers. I'd like to see the numbers and actually judge for myself if its a true "explosion".

    Indications of an increase in violence against women.
    Indications? That's the best they could come up with? Sounds like they couldn't find much hard evidence to verify this claim. Again I can't say for sure without reading the study itself or at least getting a overview of it, but indications is pretty weak language from a sight that seems to use strong language whenever possible.

    First off, thank you for presenting an actual argument finally. This is finally something we can actually debate rather than simply saying "I know its wrong". You've argued that legalizing prostitution has externality costs that justify its continued illegal status. However, so far (and I haven't looked at Talloullou's links yet, I guess I'll need to wade through this thread and look at them) I've only seen correlation, not definative causation.

    I haven't seen evidence that legalized prostitution is guaranteed to cause these negative consequences. There are plenty of variables that could contribute. For example, just one thing that caught my eye from your own link ...

    In the state of Victoria, Australia, where a system of legalized, regulated brothels was established, there was such an explosion in the number of brothels that it immediately overwhelmed the system's ability to regulate them, and just as quickly these brothels became a mire of organized crime, corruption, and related crimes.
    The government here was not prepared to adaquetely oversee the increase in prostitution. It was unprepared and underequipped, not surprisingly abuses and corruption took root. If a system had been in place that could've handled the increase and not be overwhelmed to the point of being irrelevant, perhaps it would've been much harder for organized crime to step in.

    Another blurb from your link this time talking about the Swedish effort, but still giving an example of an applicable point I'm going to raise ...

    They quickly identified, then solved the problem. The hang-up, the place where their best efforts had snagged, was that law enforcement wasn't doing it's part.
    The police were not prepared to act on this change in legislation. Without a prepared and educated police force enforcing its policies, the Swedish legislation failed to make any impact. Clearly police preparation and training is a key variable here. Its quite possible, probably even likely that police forces in countries where prostitution was legalized did not recieve training to deal with the potential problems like increase in human trafficing and organized crime involvement. Had the police been trained and prepared to deal with these new developments, perhaps the problems wouldn't have been able to take root.

    My basic point is just because legalizing prostitution hasn't gone perfectly smooth in other nations does not mean legalization doesn't work period. We can learn from the examples of other nations to get a feel for what kind of preparation we need to make to make legalization work.

    I'm going to drop the rest of my snarky replies to the rest of our counter post because if you're willing to drop the whole "Its immoral/wrong/offensive so it should be illegal argument" and move on to debating if the potential externality costs of prostitution warrant its continued prohibition I would enjoy that debate much more.

    However, to gather some information as this isn't a topic I've studied in great depth. Heck, I'd be willing to do a formal REAL debate on it with you or anyone else if you're up for it.
    Last edited by Psychoclown; 03-22-09 at 12:43 AM.
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  6. #386
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Interesting article. Allow me to share a few thoughts ...

    My basic point is just because legalizing prostitution hasn't gone perfectly smooth in other nations does not mean legalization doesn't work period. We can learn from the examples of other nations to get a feel for what kind of preparation we need to make to make legalization work.

    I'm going to drop the rest of my snarky replies to the rest of our counter post because if you're willing to drop the whole "Its immoral/wrong/offensive so it should be illegal argument" and move on to debating if the potential externality costs of prostitution warrant its continued prohibition I would enjoy that debate much more.

    However, to gather some information as this isn't a topic I've studied in great depth. Heck, I'd be willing to do a formal REAL debate on it with you or anyone else if you're up for it.
    I think you're probably just another male who thinks exploiting women is ok. You think it's ok even though a good many of them are drug addicts. The supposed call girls I've seen don't really like it, they hate men from what I can tell or are lesbians. There may be a few with high IQ's, but mainly they aren't extremely bright.

    You assumed other countries were doing fine with it and I provided an interesting article. I see no other angle with the debate with you.

    I feel it's a male domination enterprise and this is why so many men are all for it, and then of course the occasional supposed call-girl. Give me a few prostitutes off the streets that are somewhat literate and let's see what they say about it. I think most of the street prostitutes are too dumb or doped up to hold a regular job, if you don't think prostitution is exploitation on them I don't know what is. Just because someone consents doesn't mean they are all there, or have their senses, or even have a means to do anything else. I say, gimme a break.

    The government outlaws a lot of these type businesses because they are impossible to regulate and they have the nuisance factor. That says it all.
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    So paying a woman for a service she is willingly providing is now exploitation? Damn, I better apologize to girl at Subway who made my sandwich, the cashier at Wal-mart who checked me out, the cashier at Speedway that rang up my gas purchase, and the waitress at TGIF who took my order. Apparently I exploited all of them and didn't even know it. I thought I was engaging in commerce. I know you're going to say, "but prostitution is different!" but tell me how. But please tell me how. How does prostitution differ from the service for cash forumla that all jobs are based on?
    Because in many ways we live in a class based society. The dr. might get more respect than the auto mechanic. The teacher more than the waitress. But there can be nothing lower on the career ladder than whore, for a female. Serving the seedy underbelly of humanity in the most shallow superficial banal way possible. Pimps, whores, drug dealers, etc all a class of their own at the bottom of the barrel.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Because in many ways we live in a class based society. The dr. might get more respect than the auto mechanic..
    I bet a NASCAR fan (and there are good many of those out there) has more respect for the auto mechanic than a DR.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I bet a NASCAR fan (and there are good many of those out there) has more respect for the auto mechanic than a DR.
    Sure. I'm sure you can put up any number of career choices and folks would move them around and rank them differently. But the one thing that would remain relatively consistent is that "whore" would be the bottom of the barrel in most every ranking system.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    But there can be nothing lower on the career ladder than whore, for a female.
    This I would disagree with. I would say the lowest are those defense attorneys that get known sex offenders off on technicalities and such.

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