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Thread: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

  1. #181
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    So when you go to a brothel and the women come out and line up are you not picking out a woman? Are you not purchasing her time? As well as her body?
    How is that different than any other service?

    Are you under any obligation whatsoever to find out about her life, the voluntary nature of her sex work, or even her name?
    I don't ask my waitress that crap either.

    Are you under any obligation to do anything?
    Yes. To not be an ass, not try and abuse her, and to pay for her services.

    Are you not paying to use her flesh?
    No, he'd be paying for a service, just like everyone else in the world pays for services rendered by fleshed humans every day.

    Is she or isn't she under an obligation to allow herself (her body) to be selfishly used by you?
    No, she is not under any obligation to do any such thing.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    I have to ask if this is your primary concern, why did you not bring it up earlier. If I recall, you brought this issue up after several posts on the morality, lack of dignity, and stigma of prostitution. If this was your primary objection to legalized prostitution, I would've thought you would've brought it up first and not wasted our time with "would you want your daughter doing this?" and other such platitudes.

    Moving on to human trafficing and prostitution, the two may be linked. I haven't read your links or checked out their authenticity, but I'll take your word for it, but they are not the same thing. Why can't we legalize prostitution and increase our enforcement efforts (with the now freed up manpower and funds from the former vice squads) to enforce laws on human trafficing? I don't see why they are mutually exclusive. We can legalize prostitution and crack down on human trafficing. Its not a either or proposition.

    And as I've said before, the fact that an industry is linked to an illegal practice isn't sufficient casue to ban that industry. Landscaping, agriculture, and food service among other industries are linked to illegal immigration. Should we ban these industries as part of the fight on illegal immigration? No. We should enforce the laws we have on the books about employing illegal immigrants along with the rest of our laws pertaining to illegal immigration.
    My biggest issue is that women have fought for the right to be taken seriously. For respect. For dignity and honor. Women fought their way out of a virtual slavery. Men don't own us, anymore. It disgusts me that women would sell themselves. No woman should aim to be a whore. The link between prostitution and human trafficking just adds fuel to my overall disgust. It bothers me immensely that there are men out there that would rather pay a whore to treat her like a disposable being than relate to a real woman. It pisses me off that there are women out there that will cater to this male need to "buy a woman." I view them, seriously, as traitors of a sort. In my mind the woman who will prostitute herself to a man is as disturbing as the woman who will put a burka on for a man.

    I know you have those occasional hookers who like to talk about the 1000's of $$$ they made whoring themselves out. How in control they were. Usually it's all in past tense because despite how positively lucrative it was they quit for some reason. The common whore doesn't make tons of money. She usually makes pretty crappy money. In most cases she doesn't keep or control a huge portion of the funds the man paid to bed her. They usually have a host of psychological issues and low self esteem. They do best when marketed like cattle, in lots.

    When sex is a commodity and marketed as a tourist attraction it's likely there are not enough willing whores within the native population of women to support the industry.

    From every angle it's just immoral. There are countless children turned prostitutes. I just literally have zero respect for prostitution. I pity the women and hope they can get out and move on to something better. I despise the customers.

    There's really not anything deeper than that in regards to my opinion. I find the whole business horribly immoral, uncivil, backwards, and tragic. It cannot feel good to let a man use you. Even if he pays you. The whole thing also reminds me just how pervy men can be, how insensitive, uncaring, etc. There's nothing about any of it that I find remotely appealing.

    This whole idea of the new proud whore is just mind boggling.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    How is that different than any other service?


    I don't ask my waitress that crap either.


    Yes. To not be an ass, not try and abuse her, and to pay for her services.


    No, he'd be paying for a service, just like everyone else in the world pays for services rendered by fleshed humans every day.


    No, she is not under any obligation to do any such thing.
    Whoring yourself out is a tard way to make money.

  4. #184
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Men go where they think they can buy sex. Vegas is sin city and prostitution is legal in places in Nevada. This creates a larger market in "vegas" than in other cities. You have more men in Vegas wanting to pay for sex then you might find in Dublin, Ohio. It's cause and demand relationship. Same with Amsterdam. Same with Australia. Same with anywhere men can go with an expectation that they will be able to buy sex. Eventually you have more men with money than women and you need to start importing, exploiting, and do whatever you can to keep business booming. You may not like that this relationship exists but it does.
    Prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas. Something else there is causing the human trafficking.

    Maybe its the fact that prostitution is illegal that is causing it.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    My biggest issue is that women have fought for the right to be taken seriously. For respect. For dignity and honor. Women fought their way out of a virtual slavery. Men don't own us, anymore. It disgusts me that women would sell themselves. No woman should aim to be a whore. The link between prostitution and human trafficking just adds fuel to my overall disgust. It bothers me immensely that there are men out there that would rather pay a whore to treat her like a disposable being than relate to a real woman. It pisses me off that there are women out there that will cater to this male need to "buy a woman." I view them, seriously, as traitors of a sort. In my mind the woman who will prostitute herself to a man is as disturbing as the woman who will put a burka on for a man.
    I've generally agreed with most of your posts in this thread... but this one is a little bit over the top in my opinion. I'm not sure why. I suppose the level of anger expressed here doesn't add up to me.

    I've never 'bought a woman.' But I've 'hired the services' of men before. Either by stuffing dollar bills in their socks as they pole danced, or by paying a little more for 'back room activities' or even for them to visit my home for private sessions.

    I never viewed them as disposable. In fact, I think many guys who hire sex workers kind of feel sympathy for them. Not all, but many. I know I did. I really did care about them as human beings. That's why we give them big tips.

    So I don't oppose prostitution because I think the participants are evil. And I don't oppose it with a heavy hand. I think it should be discouraged. How's that?


  6. #186
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    My biggest issue is that women have fought for the right to be taken seriously. For respect. For dignity and honor. Women fought their way out of a virtual slavery. Men don't own us, anymore. It disgusts me that women would sell themselves. No woman should aim to be a whore. The link between prostitution and human trafficking just adds fuel to my overall disgust. It bothers me immensely that there are men out there that would rather pay a whore to treat her like a disposable being than relate to a real woman. It pisses me off that there are women out there that will cater to this male need to "buy a woman." I view them, seriously, as traitors of a sort. In my mind the woman who will prostitute herself to a man is as disturbing as the woman who will put a burka on for a man.
    Men no more "buy a woman" when they purchase the services of a prostitute than they do when they purchase the services of anyone else. Your incorrect notion that they do is the disturbing one.

    But in a way I agree with the notion, only about waitresses. It is truly sad that women degrade themselves in such a worthless service industry that caters to the lazy, ****ed up, pathetic scum who can't even cook their own goddamn food. I mean, women fought for so long to be taken seriously, and then here are these looser women degrading themselves by actually SERVING people like common houseslaves. There's no dignity or honor in being a slave like that... selling themselves for piddly crap wages... being forced to smile and be cheery even at the most asshole customers. No woman should aim to be someone's serving wench/slave. It's disgusting that women would sell their flesh in such a way.

    I know you have those occasional hookers who like to talk about the 1000's of $$$ they made whoring themselves out. How in control they were. Usually it's all in past tense because despite how positively lucrative it was they quit for some reason.
    I quit waitressing for some reason too. Quit river guiding. Quit being a professional photographer. Quit ski patrol. Quit driving an ambulance. And quit management at Sony. All for "some reason" Astonishingly, I actually made thousands of dollars at those jobs, and was in control. I guess I must have quit because I am actually not being truthful about making money in those jobs and being in control, eh? I guess the fact that I quit a job MUST mean that I was beaten, raped, and didn't make any money.

    Gimme a break. Prostitutes are not victims, as much as you'd like them to be.

    The common whore doesn't make tons of money. She usually makes pretty crappy money. In most cases she doesn't keep or control a huge portion of the funds the man paid to bed her. They usually have a host of psychological issues and low self esteem. They do best when marketed like cattle, in lots.
    And you know this... how? You know prostitutes? Talk to any personally? Or you just read silly, misguided websites that tell you what you want to hear about the minority of prostitutes who happen to be streetwalkers?

    When sex is a commodity and marketed as a tourist attraction it's likely there are not enough willing whores within the native population of women to support the industry.
    Kinda like illegal immigration and forced slave labor amongst that population too, eh? I wonder what we could do about that. Oh, I know!! Keep it illegal.

    From every angle it's just immoral. There are countless children turned prostitutes.
    And that is illegal, and wrong. No one is arguing it isn't. But that isn't what we're talking about.

    I just literally have zero respect for prostitution. I pity the women and hope they can get out and move on to something better. I despise the customers.
    I pity waitresses for the same reasons.

    There's really not anything deeper than that in regards to my opinion. I find the whole business horribly immoral, uncivil, backwards, and tragic. It cannot feel good to let a man use you. Even if he pays you. The whole thing also reminds me just how pervy men can be, how insensitive, uncaring, etc. There's nothing about any of it that I find remotely appealing.
    I know! They were SOOOOO insensitive when they handed me wads of cash and wined and dined me. Damn those perverts! Damn them to hell!

    You are correct in that it doesn't feel good to let a person use you. Which is why I never have let anyone use me. I've always worked for a living. And when I have sex, I never consider myself used. In fact, often it's the other way around. After all, if I'm getting paid.. I just used them to make money. If I'm not getting paid, then I just used them to get off. And sometimes.. it was both.

    This whole idea of the new proud whore is just mind boggling.
    The whole idea of a proud serving wench is mind boggling too. To each their own I guess. /shrug
    Last edited by rivrrat; 03-17-09 at 11:41 PM.

  7. #187
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Whoring yourself out is a tard way to make money.
    So is waitressing. And ditch digging. And sewage cleaners. I could go on and on.

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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    here's an interesting article:

    The Netherlands formally adopted the legalization model in 2000, and there were modest public health benefits for the licensed prostitutes. But legalization nurtured a large sex industry and criminal gangs that trafficked underage girls, and so trafficking, violence and child prostitution flourished rather than dying out.

    As a result, the Netherlands is now backtracking on its legalization model by closing some brothels, and other countries, like Bulgaria, are backing away from that approach.

    In contrast, Sweden experimented in 1999 with a radically different approach that many now regard as much more successful: it decriminalized the sale of sex but made it a crime to buy sex. In effect, the policy was to arrest customers, but not the prostitutes.

    Some Swedish prostitutes have complained that the policy reduced demand and thus lowered prices, while forcing sex work underground. But the evidence is strong that the new approach reduced trafficking in Sweden, and opinion polls show that Swedes regard the experiment as a considerable success. And the bottom line is that if you want to rape a 13-year-old girl imported from Eastern Europe, you’ll have a much easier time in Amsterdam than in Stockholm.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/13/op...=1&oref=slogin

    I fully support cracking down on the demand side of the equation.

  9. #189
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    My biggest issue is that women have fought for the right to be taken seriously. For respect. For dignity and honor. Women fought their way out of a virtual slavery. Men don't own us, anymore. It disgusts me that women would sell themselves. No woman should aim to be a whore. The link between prostitution and human trafficking just adds fuel to my overall disgust. It bothers me immensely that there are men out there that would rather pay a whore to treat her like a disposable being than relate to a real woman. It pisses me off that there are women out there that will cater to this male need to "buy a woman." I view them, seriously, as traitors of a sort. In my mind the woman who will prostitute herself to a man is as disturbing as the woman who will put a burka on for a man.
    Just like the woman who puts the burka on for whatever reason, the prostitute chooses to enter her profession. You can say its due to desperation or emotional scars or whatever and you may be right, but its still a choice. You may not like the choices they make, you may find them to be reprehensible, but they have no affect on you so I don't see how you or society should have any say in the matter. This applies the burka wearing woman and the prostitute. Afterall, I assume you're not advocating we ban burkas.

    I know you have those occasional hookers who like to talk about the 1000's of $$$ they made whoring themselves out. How in control they were. Usually it's all in past tense because despite how positively lucrative it was they quit for some reason. The common whore doesn't make tons of money. She usually makes pretty crappy money. In most cases she doesn't keep or control a huge portion of the funds the man paid to bed her.
    In an unregulated industry where a pimp is able to use violence to extort the prostitutes of course this happens. Independent contractors do far better and would probably be more prominent in a legalized situation.

    When sex is a commodity and marketed as a tourist attraction it's likely there are not enough willing whores within the native population of women to support the industry.
    Perhaps, and if that leads to an increase in human trafficing then we should step up our efforts to combat human trafficing. That doesn't justify abolishing a transaction between two consenting adults.

    From every angle it's just immoral. There are countless children turned prostitutes. I just literally have zero respect for prostitution. I pity the women and hope they can get out and move on to something better. I despise the customers.

    There's really not anything deeper than that in regards to my opinion. I find the whole business horribly immoral, uncivil, backwards, and tragic. It cannot feel good to let a man use you. Even if he pays you. The whole thing also reminds me just how pervy men can be, how insensitive, uncaring, etc. There's nothing about any of it that I find remotely appealing.

    This whole idea of the new proud whore is just mind boggling.
    You don't like it. That's clear and understandable, but its not sufficient justification to make it illegal. I don't like neo Nazis, communists, or reality TV, but I don't think we should ban them.
    Last edited by Psychoclown; 03-17-09 at 11:39 PM.
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    Re: Selling sex legally in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    Well, I personally would rather see my daughter happy, and if that makes them happy so be it. It's none of my business. If they are an adult then I see no reason why they can't do what they choose. Then again, I don't have the same stigma that many people here seem to have against prostitution.
    I would be sick with grief if my kid did this or pornography for a living. I had a relative who did some porno and when you even mention it it gets a really creepy feeling amongst all of us who knew this person. It's embarrassing to know he did this. It's embarrassing, but it's almost like a slap in the face to all of us in the family. It just hurts a whole lotta people when you do this for a living. It hurts everybody who knows and loves you. Pretty sickening to do this to yourself, but also to others. I've watched shows where people in the porn industry try to date regular people, and as soon as anybody finds out this is what you do, it's, "oh, well, nice knowing ya. Toodles!" Sooooo if there's really nothing wrong with it then why does everybody react to it in this manner? Some might say it's because we're pre-conditioned to feel this way, but I think it just goes back to the beginnings of time, so it's gonna be hard to erace that from the heritage pool. It's like, "What did Grandma do for a living? She was a prostitute. Oh, that's interesting. See ya!"
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