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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    This is ironic, so called conservatives arguing against privatized insurance.
    I commented about this on another thread a few days ago. Since many in the military are conservative, I suppose socialized medicine is OK only if it takes care of conservatives. There's a word for that...

    hypocrite

    BTW, I strongly disagree with Obama doing this. Our military deserve better and should receive these benefits.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 03-17-09 at 03:48 AM.
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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It's you who are cherry picking by bringing up things I never even mentioned, assuming they are my position (when they aren't at all), and then saying I'm off topic. What a brilliant feat of logic.

    All I said, and I still believe, is that if the military gets socialized health care, then so should the American people. I never said anything about treating civilians as military personnel, that was your irrelevant diatribe. Tax payers pay for the military to get health care, and not just the ones in combat. Those even doing a peaceful tour get covered.

    Every other developed nation covers everyone, civilian and military alike. I disagree with military getting special treatment. Sure they are defending society, but they are defending a society that is ill.
    You can't change the facts to suit your argument. The military gets free health care because that's what it was promised in exchange for the dangerous job they do/have done. You are the one trying to somehow tie this in with civilians and I was addressing that with you ie. reminding you it was off-topic. lol!

    Obama wants to change the deal after the fact; after the soldiers have already held up their end of the bargain and gotten injured. That is really rotten! Especially when you consider he is their Commander-in-Chief. That is the problem.

    Ps. of course tax-payers provide for the common defense. Good luck getting soldiers if you don't take care of the wounded!

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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I commented about this on another thread a few days ago. Since many in the military are conservative, I suppose socialized medicine is OK only if it takes care of conservatives. There's a word for that...

    hypocrite

    BTW, I strongly disagree with Obama doing this. Our military deserve better and should receive these benefits.
    I don't know what the other thread is but I can comment on this here.

    FWIW:
    My family is military and conservative and against socialized health care. I don't think we're being hypocrites. Given the choice we'd rather have higher pay and private health insurance. That's not the deal you're given though. It's presented as here's your pay and benefits package; the pay isn't great but we make up for it in benefits. When you're young and healthy you don't know better. Now that we're older and have used the health system more we're a bit wiser. I wouldn't wish it for other people. When we get out we'll have a choice of using the military facilities or paying a fee and going civilian. We hope to do the latter. If America goes socialized we won't be able to do that! That would suck. And that's why I don't think we're hypocrites. We really want to be able to go back to civilian. Do you understand what I'm saying? Even if it's a struggle to pay. Having the gov't in charge of your medical care can really lessen the quality. We know this first-hand. We've been in areas where they haven't had military facilities so we've had to use civilian and OMG, it is so much better. We've also lived overseas, in Europe, and have gotten a taste of their brand of socialized medicine.
    I would say that civilian American is the best, socialized European the worst and the American-gov't military is in the middle, closer to the socialized European.

    This isn't about trying to keep it from anyone else. Again, if we had the choice we'd pick pay that was more in line with civilian pay and regular insurance like civilians have. That hasn't been an option for us (but will be, hopefully soon if we can retire away from a military base w/regular civilian pay). I hope that clears it up a little. It should open people's eyes that the people who have socialized health care are the ones saying "no, don't get it!!!"

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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    Obama wants to change the deal after the fact; after the soldiers have already held up their end of the bargain and gotten injured. That is really rotten! Especially when you consider he is their Commander-in-Chief. That is the problem.
    As I already said, it should be on a go-forward basis only, so that pre-existing contracts are not violated. Go back and read my original post.

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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    I'm curious about how vets costs are paid for now - do vets have private insurance now already or are their (military injury) costs paid for by the Govt?

    IF their costs are paid for by solely the Govt now then what is being discussed is a breach of the unwritten mandate to treat the war wounded on their return however if Private Insurance is already involved I can see the reason for going one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    -- We've also lived overseas, in Europe, and have gotten a taste of their brand of socialized medicine.
    I would say that civilian American is the best, socialized European the worst and the American-gov't military is in the middle, closer to the socialized European.
    I'm afraid your personal experiences aren't backed by any of the major independent studies comparing quality vs costs of healthcare. You certainly have the costliest healthcare in the world - but all that spending hasn't made it the best by a long way. If you're super-rich then yes, throwing money at all your health needs in the US is the way to go.

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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Audit: More bad accounting in veterans health care

    Friday January 23, 2009 8:01 PM

    By HOPE YEN


    Associated Press Writer= WASHINGTON (AP) — Two years after a politically embarrassing $1 billion shortfall that imperiled veterans health care, the Veterans Affairs Department is still lowballing budget estimates to Congress to keep its spending down, government investigators say.

    The report by the Government Accountability Office, set to be released later Friday, highlights the Bush administration's problems in planning for the treatment of veterans that President Barack Obama has pledged to fix. It found the VA's long-term budget plan for the rehabilitation of veterans in nursing homes, hospices and community centers to be flawed, failing to account for tens of thousands of patients and understating costs by millions of dollars.

    In its strategic plan covering 2007 to 2013, the VA inflated the number of veterans it would treat at hospices and community centers based on a questionably low budget, the investigators concluded. At the same time, they said, the VA didn't account for roughly 25,000 — or nearly three-quarters — of its patients who receive treatment at nursing homes operated by the VA and state governments each year.

    "VA's use, without explanation, of cost assumptions and a workload projection that appear unrealistic raises questions about both the reliability of VA's spending estimates and the extent to which VA is closing previously identified gaps in noninstitutional long-term care services," according to the 34-page draft report obtained by The Associated Press.

    Lawmakers expressed anger, saying they will be watching for new VA Secretary Eric Shinseki to provide a more honest accounting.

    "The problems at the VA have been caused by years of mismanagement and putting the bottom line above the needs of our veterans," said Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash. "While we won't fix everything overnight, Secretary Shinseki has pledged honesty and accurate accounting which are key to realistic budgets and providing the services our veterans have earned."

    The VA did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

    In the report, the VA acknowledged problems in its plan for long-term care, which accounts annually for more than $4 billion, or 12 percent of its total health care spending. In many cases, officials told the GAO they put in lower estimates in order to be "conservative" in their appropriations requests to Congress and to "stay within anticipated budgetary constraints."

    As to the 25,000 nursing home patients unaccounted for, the VA explained it was usual clinical practice to provide short-term care of 90 days or less following hospitalization in a VA medical center, such as for those who had a stroke, to ensure patients are medically stable. But the VA had chosen not to budget for them because the government is not legally required to provide the care except in serious cases.

    The GAO noted the VA was in the process of putting together an updated strategic plan. Shinseki, a former Army chief of staff who was sworn in Wednesday as VA secretary, has promised to submit "credible and adequate" budget requests.

    "VA supports GAO's overarching conclusion that the long-term care strategic planning and budgeting justification process should be clarified," wrote outgoing VA Secretary James Peake in a response dated Jan. 5. He said the department would put together an action plan within 60 days of the report's release.

    The report comes amid an expected surge in demand from veterans for long-term rehabilitative and other care over the next several years. Roughly 40 percent of the veteran population is age 65 or older, compared to about 13 percent of the general population, with the number of elderly veterans expected to increase through 2014.

    In 2005, the VA stunned Congress by suddenly announcing it faced a $1 billion shortfall after failing to take into account the additional cost of caring for veterans injured in Iraq and Afghanistan. The admission, which came months after the department insisted it was operating within its means and did not need additional money, drew harsh criticism from both parties.

    The GAO later determined the VA repeatedly miscalculated — if not deliberately misled taxpayers — with questionable methods used to justify Bush administration cuts to health care amid the burgeoning Iraq war. In Friday's report, the GAO said it had found similarly unrealistic assumptions and projections in the VA's more recent budget estimates submitted in August 2007.

    According to latest GAO report, the VA is believed to have:

    —Undercut its 2009 budget estimate for nursing home care by roughly $112 million. It noted the VA planned for $4 billion in spending, up $108 million from the previous year, based largely on a projected 2.5 percent increase in costs. But previously, the VA had actually seen an annual cost increase of 5.5 percent.

    —Underestimated costs of care in noninstitutional settings such as hospices by up to $144 million. The VA assumed costs would not increase in 2009, even though in recent years the cost of providing a day of noninstitutional care increased by 19 percent.

    —Overstated the amount of noninstitutional care. The VA projected a 38 percent increase in patient workload in 2009, partly in response to previous GAO and inspector general reports that found widespread gaps in services and urged greater use of the facilities. But for unknown reasons, veterans served in recent years actually decreased slightly, and the VA offered no explanation as to how it planned to get higher enrollment.
    Guardian Newspaper Story
    Seems there's more to the history of this story than simply saying Obama is trying to cut back on military spending at the cost of US Veterans..

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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Set aside all the partisan bickering and questions about socialized medicine v. the free market.

    We can all agree that the military budget is more bloated than it should be, but if you're trying to cut $540m out of a $800b budget, does health care for wounded soldiers sound like the best place to start?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    No one is arguing against privatized insurance. That has nothing to do with this.

    Veterans were promised health care for life. That was part of the deal. Esp. wounded vets have earned that. The gov't is supposed to take care of them! That the CIC would try to take that away is such a big betrayal, it's almost beyond belief. The gov't sent them out to fight for their country, to give up part of their lives for their country. In exchange the gov't was supposed to provide health care. You're aware of that, right? The vets can't get those years - or their health - back. Now after the fact he wants to yank that promised benefit? I can't find the words to describe how disgusted I am. My husband is a soldier and *part* of the reason we've put up with the low pay and frequent moves and separations is for the benefits. This is just a really, really horrible way to treat disabled veterans. No CIC has ever screwed over veterans like this before.
    Why would anyone ever enlist again? This is one way to bring back the draft!
    Dix, Hats off to your warrior and all his buddies.
    These people are the best and deserve to be treated like gold.

    Thanks to them all.
    Can't be said enough.


    As for the Bolded section.
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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I commented about this on another thread a few days ago. Since many in the military are conservative, I suppose socialized medicine is OK only if it takes care of conservatives. There's a word for that...

    [SIZE=1]hypocrite
    What a load.
    And a load of faulty thinking.
    It certainly is not a partisan stance.
    I do not care what party these people are.

    But nice to see you reveal your true self.

    I suppose you would have warriors negotiating medical coverage with private insurers.

    They would have to pay the government/military for ambulance service on the battlefield, helicopter delivery, Triage, international travel... or perhaps they could let Iraqi Dr.'s work on our boys. That would lower premiums a little.

    These people are fighting for their country.
    It's a simple contract they enter into.
    The serve to defend and protect, and they in turn receive care.

    Does it really make sense for warriors to buy private medical insurance?
    Duh.

    In all the show me where socialism works discussions I said there was one instance it does.
    The military.
    Because people's lives are on the line... they are motivated like no other government run sector.
    Last edited by zimmer; 03-17-09 at 05:59 AM.
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    Re: The American Legion Strongly Opposed to President's Plan to Charge Wounded Heroes

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    What a load.
    And a load of faulty thinking.
    It certainly is not a partisan stance.
    I do not care what party these people are.

    But nice to see you reveal your true self.

    I suppose you would have warriors negotiating medical coverage with private insurers.

    They would have to pay the government/military for ambulance service on the battlefield, helicopter delivery, Triage, international travel... or perhaps they could let Iraqi Dr.'s work on our boys. That would lower premiums a little.

    These people are fighting for their country.
    It's a simple contract they enter into.
    The serve to defend and protect, and they in turn receive care.

    Does it really make sense for warriors to buy private medical insurance?
    Duh.

    In all the show me where socialism works discussions I said there was one instance it does.
    The military.
    Because people's lives are on the line... they are motivated like no other government run sector.
    Please try to read the entire post before go off on one of your silly tangents:

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    BTW, I strongly disagree with Obama doing this. Our military deserve better and should receive these benefits.
    Next time, perhaps you will be a little more careful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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