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Thread: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Until Chavez dissolves the Republic, you cannot call him a dictator. And if the government voted for nationalization of the ports, then it is legal.

    So what are you crying about?

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Until Chavez dissolves the Republic, you cannot call him a dictator.
    If you haven't seen The Revolution Will Not be Televised you should check it out.

    There's this scene where the coup's self-declared Attorney General decree's that, in essence, all power is put into the hands of one man (a military man, big surprise there) and that all democratic institutions are done away with, ending with his own justice dept.

    Then he goes on to say something like "We have saved freedom in Venezuela!"

    One of the most ridiculous shams in my recollection, all caught on video. But what is truly surprising is that a man who signed the coup decree, Manual Rosales, went on to become Chavez's main opposition in the 2006 presidential election!!! Had that happened in the US, he would have been hung by his entrails when the govt was restored.

    This latest attempt to label Mr Chavez as a dictator, simply because he disagrees with the neo-liberal dogma (which has had so much success in latin-america over the years ), is getting pathetic and seems to be bordering on the obsessive.

    Once again, proper definitions are done away with and a dictator is anyone who may interfere with the "free market"
    down for you is up

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Until Chavez dissolves the Republic, you cannot call him a dictator. And if the government voted for nationalization of the ports, then it is legal.

    So what are you crying about?
    I will continue calling him that until I see evidence otherwise.

    I'm glad we are all comfortable with leaders doing things as long as someone voted for it.

    I think that will be the new rally cry in this century.

    It's ok to do evil things "He was democratically elected".




    Quote Originally Posted by Joby
    If you haven't seen The Revolution Will Not be Televised you should check it out.

    There's this scene where the coup's self-declared Attorney General decree's that, in essence, all power is put into the hands of one man (a military man, big surprise there) and that all democratic institutions are done away with, ending with his own justice dept.

    Then he goes on to say something like "We have saved freedom in Venezuela!"

    One of the most ridiculous shams in my recollection, all caught on video. But what is truly surprising is that a man who signed the coup decree, Manual Rosales, went on to become Chavez's main opposition in the 2006 presidential election!!! Had that happened in the US, he would have been hung by his entrails when the govt was restored.

    This latest attempt to label Mr Chavez as a dictator, simply because he disagrees with the neo-liberal dogma (which has had so much success in latin-america over the years ), is getting pathetic and seems to be bordering on the obsessive.

    Once again, proper definitions are done away with and a dictator is anyone who may interfere with the "free market"
    As before it will take time but you will see that he is indeed a dictator or tyrant.

    Which ever you are more comfortable with.

    At least he was democratically elected right?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Free market approaches are less Utopian than socialist ones because they directly infer human nature.

    Socialism ignores the consequences of this.
    That is a factually inaccurate claim. Firstly, the patently absurd nature of rational choice theory has been illustrated.

    "'Can you direct me to the railway station?' asks the stranger. 'Certainly,' says the local, pointing, in the opposite direction, towards the post office, 'and would you post this letter for me on your way?' 'Certainly,' says the stranger, resolving to open it to see if it contains anything worth stealing." (McQuaig, 2001)

    You have also failed to analyze the nature of cooperation as opposed to competition in fostering self-interest, a field of study that has been neglected ever since the emergence of social Darwinism. The major exception to this, as I mentioned previously, was Peter Kropotkin's Mutual Aid, a book regarding the nature of cooperation rather than competition in natural circumstances, based on his observations during his time in Siberia.

    Moreover, the validity of Kropotkin's work on this topic was affirmed by no less an authority than the evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould in Kropotkin Was No Crackpot.

    The central logic of Kropotkin’s argument is simple, straightforward, and largely cogent...I would hold that Kropotkin’s basic argument is correct.
    Gould did fault Kropotkin with not realizing that cooperation was primarily intended to benefit individual organisms, which was a common mistake at the time, but again, this misconception was not one isolated to Kropotkin. As a whole, his work is valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    No matter which system you operate under information asymmetries always exist.

    Capitalism recognizes this.
    This assessment is factually inaccurate, not least because you continue to be dismissive of capitalism's ignorance of asymmetric information and its resulting problems. Comments such as "no matter which system you operate under information asymmetries always exist" fails to recognize the nature of the positive relation between equity and efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I understand clearly how the culture of Latin America operates.

    What you do not understand is that under state sponsored and mandated education systems, the state domesticates the population at large with extreme non violence programs.

    The Latin Americans as a whole are already on this path.

    There are examples in antiquity and even modern times of revolt but that was before the introduction of state sponsored and mandated education systems which promote extreme non violence to authoritarianism.
    This is curious because you first consider to fail the role of schooling in a capitalist society, in which authoritarian forms of hierarchy are utilized to form a submissive character that takes orders without question in the workplace, as evidence by reliance on the ultimate authority of teachers and administrators, the factory-like conditions, the emphasis on uniforms, etc. I would first advise you to have a look at the work of Samuel Bowles and Herbert Gintis in Schooling in Capitalist America, and then move on to some John Holt and Ivan Illich. Since I oppose compulsory schooling and the internal authoritarian elements within schools, perhaps you should devote greater analysis to this topic?

    The purpose of the expansion of education in Venezuela has primarily been promotion of increased literacy. As again noted by Hahnel:

    In addition to increasing spending dramatically on healthcare and food subsidies, the government launched a massive program of adult education. Millions of poor Venezuelans have now overcome illiteracy, and hundreds of thousands have received primary diplomas and secondary degrees studying in store-front schools named Mision Robinson I (literacy), Mision Robinson II (primary), and Mision Rivas (secondary).
    What is your source? On what basis do you make contrary claims about the nature of Venezuelan education?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Humans by nature do inefficient things all the time, it will be no different under a socialist regime.
    I do not promote existence "under a socialist regime." I promote social and economic organization in horizontal federations of non-hierarchical, decentralized collectives and communes operated through direct democracy. But your response still constitutes a failure to apply political economy correctly and analyze the nature of the positive relation between equity and efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That is all well and good but they are short term examples.

    You don't measure the success of a program over the short term because nearly all the results will be positive.

    With the human mind diminished returns follow over the long term.
    It's not even a matter of "short term" gains, as worker-owned enterprises have a long tradition of existence. For instance, we could refer to the 53 year old Mondragon Cooperative Corporation, one of the largest co-operatives in the world and the largest corporation in the Basque region. As last year's annual report of the year prior noted:

    MONDRAGON provided 3.9% of the total employment in the Autonomous Community of the Basque Country, and 9.1% of industrial employment. At the close of 2007, of the 103,371 people employed by the Mondragón Corporation in its cooperatives and portfolio companies, 38,335 carried out their activity in the Basque Autonomous Community and 4,848 in Navarra.
    Workers' management is a critical element in the success of the MCC, a fact that they themselves proudly attest to.

    It is not easy to explain the reason for the success of our co-operative and business movement in just a few words. However, we can highlight the following key points:

    · The vital role played by Arizmendiarrieta, the driving force behind the Experience, with his grand vision of the future and his influence over both students and disciples when putting his ideas into practice.

    · The personal nature of the co-operatives, in which people are given priority over capital, an attitude which results in a high level of worker involvement in the company, through direct participation in both the capital and the management. All this contributes to creating a positive atmosphere of consensus and collaboration.

    · A decidedly business-like approach to the co-operative phenomenon, in which company profitability and planned, rigorous and demanding management efficiency are seen as basic principles.

    · Re-investment of practically all resources generated.

    · Ongoing adaptation to the changes taking place in the environment.

    · Creation of efficient inter-cooperation instruments: both in the financial field and as regards social welfare, innovation and R&D, co-ordinated job management and situations of crisis.

    · Finally, another key element in the success of the Mondragón Experience, both initially and today, is the importance attached to training, both as regards formal education, such as that provided by our University Faculties and Professional Schools, and as regards Lifelong Training linked to professional refresher courses and advanced courses.
    Hence, this merely serves to provide more evidence of the pure pragmatism of worker-owned and managed enterprises, which have the capacity to generate large gains in efficiency and productivity.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    And you have failed to apply the role of global goods and services in this regard.

    No industry is permanent to a nation it can not permanent anchor a job to a specific area ever.
    I don't recall claiming anything to the contrary. However, I don't believe you want to venture into the area of trade liberalization, lest you be confronted by the infant industry argument again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A single owner has more at stake to regulating and promoting efficiency than does a collective.

    As a collective grows the less efficient it gets, that is the beauty of capitalism, it recognizes this and openly understands that in the end corporations and all private entities will fail giving rise to new and smaller private businesses.
    Yet another failure to apply political economy correctly because you evidently don't understand the nature of decentralized management. The traditional capitalist firm is subject to a Hayekian critique inasmuch as it relies on wide-scale centralization and hierarchy, whereas the collective is necessarily decentralized and can produce efficiency gains through the resulting elimination of the principal-agent problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The state is not supposed to serve as a stabilizing agent. It exists to promote Justice among individuals.

    Stability can not be guaranteed by any state.
    Of course the state isn't supposed to serve as a stabilizing agent in a capitalist economy, but it effectively does, the reason for this being that the free market utopia that you conceptualize is nonexistent outside of the textbook. However, I believe this is the third time that you have ignored the infant industry argument. Here's how to start: Infant industry argument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Hierarchies are destined to exist for quite some time as humans develop differently from each other assuming different qualities that others don't develop.
    You're not accurately understanding the distinction between natural and unnatural forms of authority. As put by Erich Fromm, authority is "a broad term with two entirely different meanings: it can be either 'rational' or 'irrational' authority. Rational authority is based on competence, and it helps the person who leans on it to grow. Irrational authority is based on power and serves to exploit the person subjected to it." Hence, the "authority" that you speak of is a form of greater natural authority brought on by competence or expertise, not hierarchical authority brought on by structural empowerment. This isn't to say that a person with hierarchical authority lacks "natural authority," (though they often will), but that the former is often beneficial, while the latter is often harmful, and serves to inhibit development of traits of the former for those subordinated under hierarchy. There certainly are innate human differences in skills and ability, but there are also certainly differences in skills and ability wrought by manmade institutions, the subordination under the state and capitalism not being the least of these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    What happens when one of the collective members starts to accumulate more capital than the others?

    What if they can buy out another member?
    Such traits are typically elements of American ESOPs. In my opinion, they don't serve to foster democracy, inasmuch as one or several workers with greater wealth or access to productive assets can simply buy all or a majority of the shares, thus obtaining more votes and preventing legitimate democratic management from occurring. Ultimately, I don't support the existence of "one share, one vote" rules, preferring the integral "one person, one vote" rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That is completely false.

    They can form a new entity to compete with the old one but they have to offer greater efficiency and innovation.

    No one is being forced to work for a lesser organization, it is not coercion.
    Again, your utopian conception of political economy shines through unabated. Why not opt for reliance on empirical evidence, especially since you lack the means to even rebut a simply analogy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    And your example represents the tyranny of democracy, the tyranny of mob rule.

    One in your example is forced to be a member of a collective when they may have no desire to do so, they are forced to do so because of your restrictive economic policies.
    In my "restrictive" economic policies, or those of Venezuela? Because in my preferred economic scheme, individuals are granted sufficient productive assets to survive on their own if they do not want to join a collective or commune, though they obviously are denied access to the resources of the collective or commune. Indeed, such a method was adopted in the anarchist collectives of the Spanish Revolution, and continues to be practiced to some extent in the Chiapas municipalities controlled by the EZLN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I have read your explanation and it is completely short sighted.

    You measure gains in the span of years, I measure it in the span of decades.
    That's not the case. I do measure gains in "the span of years" to measure the reality of immediate benefits, not to indicate the long-term desirability of any particular economic system. Indeed, that's better indicated by other varieties of empirical evidence, such as the survival of the aforementioned Mondragon Cooperative Corporation, the Israeli kibbutzim, or the Chiapas municipalities controlled by the Zapatista Army of National Liberation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    There are no perfect economic situations anywhere.

    Capitalism has a greater chance of furthering human evolution than does collectivist socialism.
    "Furthering human evolution"? This isn't related to your social Darwinist misunderstanding again, is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm not hostile to empirical evidence, I'm hostile to people who cite short term gains to illustrate success.

    I can pull up tons of examples that over the short term something is a success or failure, just as you have.
    This is growing tiresome. Your complaints here are clearly unsustainable, as my reliance is not on "short term gains." I've referred to gains made over the course of a few years to illustrate the immediate economic benefits of socialism, yes, but I've never claimed that those functioned as illustrations of its longevity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Whether you believe it or not we have very similar ideologies.

    It is how we get there that is different.

    I personally think the most free and efficient model of human success was in the Indian tribal communities.
    I wouldn't be surprised if your primitivist approach is related to your current hostility to empirical evidence, since forms of social and economic organization in outdated rural settings obviously have some degree of inapplicability to industrialized urban settings. Indeed, this problem also has some relation to anti-socialists' misappropriation of Adam Smith, whose free market advocacy was rendered obsolete by industrial development. Were he alive today, he would be openly egalitarian.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    What happens when one of the collective members starts to accumulate more capital than the others?

    What if they can buy out another member?
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate
    Such traits are typically elements of American ESOPs. In my opinion, they don't serve to foster democracy, inasmuch as one or several workers with greater wealth or access to productive assets can simply buy all or a majority of the shares, thus obtaining more votes and preventing legitimate democratic management from occurring. Ultimately, I don't support the existence of "one share, one vote" rules, preferring the integral "one person, one vote" rule.
    And this is more or less what I was looking for.

    Your philosophy hings on altruism, which doesn't exist universally with man.
    It doesn't matter how many votes or what you think it is typical of.

    When one cooperative member has more resources than another their increase in capital will hold influence over another.

    You have yet to reconcile this with your master plan for social success.

    What happens when that member has more capital than others?

    What if they gain more resources to gain excess capital after that?

    How can you sit here and tell me that your system is anymore democratic when it is a breath away from capitalism as any other system is?

    How will there not be an irrational hierarchy that develops when that member with excess resources and excess capital needs to hire subordinates to help manage those resources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate
    This is growing tiresome. Your complaints here are clearly unsustainable, as my reliance is not on "short term gains." I've referred to gains made over the course of a few years to illustrate the immediate economic benefits of socialism, yes, but I've never claimed that those functioned as illustrations of its longevity.
    Take a break, I have plenty more.

    I don't run away from challenges, I'll address the rest of your post later though.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    And this is more or less what I was looking for.

    Your philosophy hings on altruism, which doesn't exist universally with man.
    It doesn't matter how many votes or what you think it is typical of.
    Nothing but a mendacious depiction, and a crudely disguised one at that. If anything, socialism in general favors the adjustment of wage norms to adequately satisfy supply and demand criteria, a condition not met in a capitalist economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    When one cooperative member has more resources than another their increase in capital will hold influence over another.

    You have yet to reconcile this with your master plan for social success.

    What happens when that member has more capital than others?

    What if they gain more resources to gain excess capital after that?

    How can you sit here and tell me that your system is anymore democratic when it is a breath away from capitalism as any other system is?

    How will there not be an irrational hierarchy that develops when that member with excess resources and excess capital needs to hire subordinates to help manage those resources?
    Of course there will be an excessive degree of influence held by an individual or small grouping in such a scenario (though I'd still hesitate to call it a "hierarchy"), but what point do you attempt to make in mentioning it? Since I don't support such an organizational scheme, what relevance does this have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Take a break, I have plenty more.

    I don't run away from challenges, I'll address the rest of your post later though.
    You don't run away so much as you post inaccuracies riddled with insufficient analyses of political economy, such as with your ignorance of the thrice mentioned infant industry argument.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    No rebuttal that you'd find the least bit interesting, I'm sure.

    If you don't mind a personal question... what is it you do for a living?

    Much as we're agonized by the lack of what would undoubtedly be thrilling insights from you, you might note that the conventional debater uses what we amateurs call "arguments" to support a favored conclusion.


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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    .


    Checks and balances depend on the individuals involved and if one powerful class, like the uneducated poor in Venezuela gain power they invariably support fallacious policies because it sounds good not because it is economically sound.
    This is where the hubris of your ilk really becomes aparent. The "uneducated poor" are educated enough to understand that the washington consensus model doesnt work [indeed I,ld imagine they are educated all too well in this respect] which is why they are voteing against it and for an alternative. Given that the washington consensus model had to be implemented by violence during the "cold war" and is failing all over the continent you should not be surprised if the backlash to this comes with an extremity you find unpaletable.

    Even a cursory look at the stats will demonstrate that Chavez has alot of support in the country because he has improved the situation there. I would ask you to look healthcare, infant mortality, literacy and access to higher education in venuzuela. I would ask you to look at how the relatively free market policies used in Peru and Brazil have made a small section of the population rich and made no difference to the rest of the population, but few people on this forum are paying a great deal of attention to this all they care about is whether the country conforms to their very narrow ideological model.

    As far as your concerned if the venuzuelans vote against this then their opinion becomes invalid because it doesnt conform to your own. Indeed as far as your concerned its the very fact that they can vote against policys that only benefit a tiny minority of the population that makes the country so undemocratic.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Nothing but a mendacious depiction, and a crudely disguised one at that. If anything, socialism in general favors the adjustment of wage norms to adequately satisfy supply and demand criteria, a condition not met in a capitalist economy.
    That is hardly the case.

    You assert that irrational hierarchies will not develop.

    I assert that based on the man naturally pools his own resrouces and capital that your assertion is complete bunk.

    What you don't understand is that with in socialism there is a class of people who naturally develop a sedentary lifestyle in favor of actually producing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Of course there will be an excessive degree of influence held by an individual or small grouping in such a scenario (though I'd still hesitate to call it a "hierarchy"), but what point do you attempt to make in mentioning it? Since I don't support such an organizational scheme, what relevance does this have?
    It doesn't matter if you support it or not.

    Your assertion is that an irrational one won't develop, that is just crap.
    Over time as one group or individual amasses this capital an irrational hierarchy develops.

    You still haven't reconciled this, instead you say what you think will happen and not what will happen or you refrain from calling it what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    You don't run away so much as you post inaccuracies riddled with insufficient analyses of political economy, such as with your ignorance of the thrice mentioned infant industry argument.
    Not inaccuracies they are the truths outside of your textbook perfect society.

    You can post all the short term examples of greatness with social programs etc etc, it still doesn't prove that your perfect society will develop with minimal irrational hierarchy developments.

    It won't happen, man is selfish whether you want to believe it or not, irrational hierarchies will develop as they have for the whole of history.
    All your plan does is leave a power vacuum for a centralist charismatic leader that appeals to the group think of your "horizontal democracy"(laugh).

    It is a joke to even suggest that this perfect democracy would stand the test of any measure of time.

    Your clearly ignore psychology in favor of tired old false arguments like your lame train station example. Humans do mean things all the time for self, personal comedic fulfillment.

    Would your perfect society not do this?
    Would the members of your perfect society not express the cruelness or group think, the follow the leader syndrome that humans possess?

    I just don't understand why you keep trying to distract me from the crux of your argument with the infant industry argument when a company that is less efficient than the old shouldn't develop, Infant industry be damned if it can't compete.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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