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Thread: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It is not decentralized. So I can't answer a wrongly worded question.
    On the contrary, as previously noted by quotation of Professor Robin Hahnel's Venezuela: Not What You Think, decentralization and grassroots participation by worker-owned cooperatives has been a fundamental element of the success of Bolivarian socialism, as opposed to the failure of central planning.

    New worker-owned cooperatives not only provided much needed jobs producing much needed basic goods and services, they also featured what was soon to become a hallmark of Bolivarian socialism -- popular participation at the grassroots level. When Chavez was first elected President in 1998, there were fewer than 800 legally registered cooperatives in Venezuela with roughly 20,000 members. In mid-2006 the National Superintendence of Cooperatives (SUNACOOP) reported that it had registered over 100,000 co-ops with over 1.5 million members. Generous amounts of oil revenues continue to provide start-up loans for thousands of new cooperatives every month, and the Ministry for the Communal Economy continues to spearhead a massive educational program for new cooperative members. However, the ministry provides more than technical assistance regarding technology, accounting, finance, business management, and marketing. It also teaches participants about cooperative principles, economic justice, and social responsibility.
    Hence, I'd recommend that you re-analyze your conception of Bolivarian socialism and the nature of Venezuelan economic success.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    On the contrary, as previously noted by quotation of Professor Robin Hahnel's Venezuela: Not What You Think, decentralization and grassroots participation by worker-owned cooperatives has been a fundamental element of the success of Bolivarian socialism, as opposed to the failure of central planning.



    Hence, I'd recommend that you re-analyze your conception of Bolivarian socialism and the nature of Venezuelan economic success.
    Your failing to see that for these worker owned cooperatives to exist that the government has to centrally plan to get it.

    The Venezuelan government is centrally planning everything else.

    The forest for the trees and all that.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Your failing to see that for these worker owned cooperatives to exist that the government has to centrally plan to get it.

    The Venezuelan government is centrally planning everything else.

    The forest for the trees and all that.
    You clearly don't understand the nature of central planning. "Central planning" is typically used to refer to central planning of allocation and retail schemes, not initial structural delegations that would themselves be involved in some degree of economic planning on a grassroots level.

    You're going to have to devote some more study to political economy.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    You clearly don't understand the nature of central planning. "Central planning" is typically used to refer to central planning of allocation and retail schemes, not initial structural delegations that would themselves be involved in some degree of economic planning on a grassroots level.

    You're going to have to devote some more study to political economy.
    I understand it but what I also understand is that something altruistic and good like a worker owned cooperative can be turned bad by a giant central planner like Chavez.

    What happens if these worker collectives start selling the products they grow, make, etc at more than the government dictated price?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I understand it but what I also understand is that something altruistic and good like a worker owned cooperative can be turned bad by a giant central planner like Chavez.
    Worker-owned cooperatives aren't primarily intended to be "altruistic" or "good"; they're intended to be efficiency maximizers, and clearly are, judging by the Venezuelan rate of economic growth. Chavez is also not a "giant central planner." Indeed, he has little involvement with the nature of economic democracy in Venezuela, considering its local coordination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    What happens if these worker collectives start selling the products they grow, make, etc at more than the government dictated price?
    "Government dictated" price? The nature of worker owned enterprises necessitates participatory budgeting at the local level, another commendable facet of Bolivarian socialism.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Worker-owned cooperatives aren't primarily intended to be "altruistic" or "good"; they're intended to be efficiency maximizers, and clearly are, judging by the Venezuelan rate of economic growth. Chavez is also not a "giant central planner." Indeed, he has little involvement with the nature of economic democracy in Venezuela, considering its local coordination.
    Wouldn't you agree though that seizing airports and seaports does nothing but concentrate the power of the central government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    "Government dictated" price? The nature of worker owned enterprises necessitates participatory budgeting at the local level, another commendable facet of Bolivarian socialism.
    There are national prices on items like rice though. If they were to try and sell excess goods above that price Chavez could take over the collectives as he has done with the corporate entities.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    Just because the people of Venezuela like him doesn't make him any less of a dictator. We are just used to automatically assuming that dictators are evil bastards who have taken their country by pure force, and guile. I mean I am not saying he is innocent of anything it's just that he is no Saddam.
    A significant portion of my step family lives in Venezuela, support for Chavez is not as prevalent as we are led to believe.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Wouldn't you agree though that seizing airports and seaports does nothing but concentrate the power of the central government?
    Such actions should be examined in their situational context, along with analysis of what the alternative consequences would be. His previous intent clearly hasn't been the implementation of strong centralized planning; it's not unlikely that these would be subject to local, decentralized management to some degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    There are national prices on items like rice though. If they were to try and sell excess goods above that price Chavez could take over the collectives as he has done with the corporate entities.
    It's not unjust that corporate entities were subject to nationalization, considering their inefficiency and promotion of social ills as a consequence of that inefficiency. Democratic management and local participatory efforts have proven themselves to be preferable in terms of efficiency maximization. There is some degree of national pricing, but this comes as a necessary result of national coordination and supply management. The majority of economic management that occurs is participatory, decentralized, and democratic, but you're so intent on finding any single point of Bolivarian socialism to criticize that you're willing to ignore this reality.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    A significant portion of my step family lives in Venezuela, support for Chavez is not as prevalent as we are led to believe.
    We aren't "led to believe" that support for Chavez is prevalent in any form. On the contrary, the American mass media would have us believe that Chavez's elections were fraudulent, despite the contrary opinions of reputable international observers, and that he "shut down" opposition media, despite the inaccuracy of that claim also.

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    Re: Navy deployed to Venezuela airports, seaports

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Such actions should be examined in their situational context, along with analysis of what the alternative consequences would be. His previous intent clearly hasn't been the implementation of strong centralized planning; it's not unlikely that these would be subject to local, decentralized management to some degree.
    How much of that local management actually exists and what would stop Chavez from overruling it once he has finished consolidating power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    It's not unjust that corporate entities were subject to nationalization, considering their inefficiency and promotion of social ills as a consequence of that inefficiency. Democratic management and local participatory efforts have proven themselves to be preferable in terms of efficiency maximization. There is some degree of national pricing, but this comes as a necessary result of national coordination and supply management. The majority of economic management that occurs is participatory, decentralized, and democratic, but you're so intent on finding any single point of Bolivarian socialism to criticize that you're willing to ignore this reality.
    So if corporate entities where actually the cause of the problems why not just reform instead of take drastic actions to remove ownership.

    Markets are usually best implemented with less intervention from outside forces like governments that can not see into the future.

    I'm not ignoring anything, I see plenty of flaws with populist ideologies that restrain individual freedom in favor of collectivism.

    Humans naturally gravitate to that which benefits them most. If at some point one sees that they can generate excess revenues outside of the collective on their own they will.

    Or if they can take a stronger leadership role inside the collective to increase their personal returns they will do what is necessary to get to that point.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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