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Thread: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

  1. #41
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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    It seems there is a hunt for a scapegoat and AIG is it. Their bonuses are a matter of contractual law and go to reward the highly skilled experts to keep them at AIG and keep them from leaving for another firm.

    And to those who say they aren't worth the bonuses if they got the company in such trouble, those folks are missing the point.

    Excess & greed, not lack of skill, got them to this point.

    Leave AIG's bonuses alone.

    It's a legitimate cost of keeping the business in good running condition.

    OBL 11/24/02

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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    You might want to take a look at the the US Constitution. I think there is something in there about making a law to cover past events.
    I am not suggesting that laws be made to affect contracts retrospectively. What I am suggesting is that, this concept that contract law should trump ethical considerations is false. In part, many of the principles of contract law stem from classic liberal concepts. But I ask you this, do you think any classic liberal would support the performance of a contract, when the PRIVATE company has received huge Government bailouts?

    Contract Law has slowly changed. We don't allow the enforcement of contracts to kill people even though the two parties involved may have consented and provided consideration. As far as I know many US state jurisdictions do not apply the doctrine of privity when the contract concerns insurance of third parties.

    Therefore it is very apparent that contract law is not some ethically silent law, but rather it can change and evolve to take into account wider considerations.

    So, my argument is this. I agree that you cannot retrospectively deny a persons contractual rights via statutory abrogation... But to just state that there is a contractual right, and that's the end of the argument, to me, strikes of legal positivism, and it ignores broader issues.

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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    It seems there is a hunt for a scapegoat and AIG is it. Their bonuses are a matter of contractual law and go to reward the highly skilled experts to keep them at AIG and keep them from leaving for another firm.

    And to those who say they aren't worth the bonuses if they got the company in such trouble, those folks are missing the point.

    Excess & greed, not lack of skill, got them to this point.

    Leave AIG's bonuses alone.

    It's a legitimate cost of keeping the business in good running condition.
    You seem to be placing an emphasis on the merit or the skills of these people, and not their actual value or performance that they bring to a firm.

    If these experts were so brilliant why does AIG have to beg the US government for bailouts? Didn't the experts see the monster that was the sub-prime?

    I don't know what business you would run, but I would not have contracts that reward mediocrity, and incompetence.

    Secondly it was a lack of skill and excessive greed that got AIG into that position in the first place. Skill and greed are required to be successful in a capitalist system, greed by itself always ends in dramatic failure.

    Where was the consulting skills of the 'experts'? Where was the analytical skills of the 'experts'? Why didn't they have the skills to predict that the Fed Reserve's monetary policy combined with governmental policy created a huge inflation of the money supply and a speculative bubble (respectively)? These so called experts are hacks.... Not worth the value that you give to them.

    Thirdly you seem to be treating contractual law as if it lives in a world completely separate from the private sphere. Many of the concepts of contractual law developed in the 1800's when the UK and America experienced the greatest period of laissez faire development. There was very little government intervention in the private dealings of individuals and businesses. Thus the maximums and doctrines reflect this environment.

    I'll put it this way, if government is willing to interfere with the workings of businesses, and businesses are willing to except these handouts; how can you then suggest that government respect contractual rights of parties? Laissez faire is not a compartmentalized concept. So if companies don't want their contractual rights interfered with, then they shouldn't except government bailouts.

    You can't have it both ways. Consequently, this defence of AIG based on contractual law, ignores the reality that AIG doesn't actually believe in laissez faire principles, but rather is quite willing to beg for handouts when it fails.

    Why should we allow men to have freedom to profit and freedom of contract if we do not hold them accountable to the inherent risks of their freedom? Capitalism becomes meaningless if we cannot differentiate between losses and profit.

    Secondly, if governments bailout failing corporations, then governments should have every right to obliterate any private law obligations that the corporation has. As I've said, you can't have it both ways......

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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by Joby View Post
    You fail miserably.

    Care to provide a legal document which provides the avenue for the government to legally give failed corporations billions of taxpayer $'s for doing nothing other than failing?...thought so, as this would require a change in the constitution.

    Therefore, why would it be necessary to to find some legality in taking the money back?

    Secondly, I did not understand your other comment about how if martial law (marshall law applied in Europe post-WWII) is being applied it wouldn't affect you. Either you do not pay taxes, as then some legal argument which would prevent the US govt from getting US taxmoney back wouldn't matter to you, or you don't live in the US and martial law wouldn't affect you. Of course, martial law isn't even on the radar (don't let that stop you from using the phrase), and the only other possibilitry is that you are receiving a bonus from AIG and therefore feel good that the American taxpayer is being taken for a sucker, giving you millions of bucks and all. And if that is the case, Obama should rape you.
    Don't bother. Seriously. This is a friendly suggestion.

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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by Joby View Post
    You fail miserably.

    Care to provide a legal document which provides the avenue for the government to legally give failed corporations billions of taxpayer $'s for doing nothing other than failing?...thought so, as this would require a change in the constitution.

    Therefore, why would it be necessary to to find some legality in taking the money back?

    Secondly, I did not understand your other comment about how if
    martial law (marshall law applied in Europe post-WWII)=
    Excuse me. English is not my first language.


    is being applied it wouldn't affect you. Either you do not pay taxes, as then some legal argument which would prevent the US govt from getting US taxmoney back wouldn't matter to you, or you don't live in the US and martial law wouldn't affect you. Of course, martial law isn't even on the radar (don't let that stop you from using the phrase), and the only other possibilitry is that you are receiving a bonus from AIG and therefore feel good that the American taxpayer is being taken for a sucker, giving you millions of bucks and all. And if that is the case, Obama should rape you.
    I think you are the failure here unless you can explain under what authority he can make examples out of them as you suggest. You want him to take what they have earned under the employment contracts they signed in good faith and throw them in prision. Does the US President have the power to have anyone he does not like arrested and their property seized?

    I have not defended the bailout but once the money was given without preconditions, it's too late. The government installed their own people in the BOD and the officiers of the company. These are the folks that made the determination that AIG was contractually bound to give the bonuses.

    What does the amount of taxes I pay have to do with anything? You don't really think these people getting bonuses will make one dollar difference in the tax I pay, do you? Come to think of it, you probably are that naive.

    As far as wishing for another DP member to be raped, is that proper in this forum? Maybe a mod could advise. Also, is Obama a rapist or are you just hoping he will become one for a special occasion?

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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    Washington knew AIG was preparing to pay bonuses
    WASHINGTON Cue the outrage. For months, the Obama administration and members of Congress have known that insurance giant AIG was getting ready to pay huge bonuses while living off government bailouts. It wasn't until the money was flowing and news was trickling out to the public that official Washington rose up in anger and vowed to yank the money back.

    Why the sudden furor, just weeks after Barack Obama's team paid out $30 billion in additional aid to the company? So far, the administration has been unable to match its actions to Obama's tough rhetoric on executive compensation. And Congress has been unable or unwilling to restrict bonuses for bailout recipients, despite some lawmakers' repeated efforts to do so.
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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by Joby View Post
    It's not a yawner to us liberals. You see, unlike you free-spending conservatives throwing billions down the holes all over the world, we care about where the money our govt spends goes.
    Yes, you "care about where the money our govt (takes and) spends goes"...
    ... into Democrat coffers.
    REF.: See Freddie and Fannie.

    In addition, Democrat policies turn people into the equivalent of crack whores, except in their case it's with tax payer (OPM) money.

    It's not Liberty that Dems are seeking, it's power. Control.
    To do that you have to control the money.

    It's why we have a graduated income tax.
    When Fed taxation began in 1916 it was for the wealthiest Americans only.
    A fraction of a percent.

    Now it's families that make 250,000.

    Yes, you folks really care where the money goes.
    You care too much.

    Wish you wouldn't... we don't need a Mommy Dearest DC.

    Now...

    ...Should Obama, Dodd and the rest return their bonuses with interest?
    How about heaping some ridicule on these mobsters?
    Senator Barack Obama received a $101,332 bonus from American International Group in the form of political contributions according to Opensecrets.org. The two biggest Congressional recipients of bonuses from the A.I.G. are - Senators Chris Dodd and Senator Barack Obama.
    Right Side Politics Examiner: Obama Received a $101,332 Bonus from AIG
    Last edited by zimmer; 03-18-09 at 06:16 AM.
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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    There is an editorial today from Edward Liddy in the Washington Post:

    Our Mission at AIG: Repairs, and Repayment

    I am mindful of the outrage of the American public and of the president's call for a more restrained compensation system. I am also mindful that every decision we make at AIG has consequences for the American taxpayer. We weigh decisions with one priority in mind: Will this action help or hurt our ability to pay money back to the government?

    Although we have wound down more than $1 trillion in the portfolio of the AIG Financial Products unit that is at the root of the company's troubles, there remains substantial risk in that portfolio. The financial downside for taxpayers is potentially very large, and that's why we're winding down this business.

    To prevent undue risk exposure in the meantime, AIG has made a set of retention payments to employees based on a compensation system that prior management put in place. As has been reported, payments were made to employees in the Financial Products unit. Make no mistake, had I been chief executive at the time, I would never have approved the retention contracts that were put in place more than a year ago. It was distasteful to have to make these payments. But we concluded that the risks to the company, and therefore the financial system and the economy, were unacceptably high.

    Edward M. Liddy - Repairing AIG and Repaying the Public

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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    Bonus money is going to eleven people who no longer are employed there and billionsis going to overseas banks.
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

  10. #50
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    Re: A.I.G. Planning $165 Million in Bonuses After Huge Bailout

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post

    ...Should Obama, Dodd and the rest return their bonuses with interest?
    How about heaping some ridicule on these mobsters?
    Since when is a political contribution considered a bonus???

    And tell me, when Dodd and Obama accepted these contributions, where they aware of the forthcoming trouble?

    Of course not.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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