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Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

marduc said:
nahh, not at first until distribution networks and a solid underground gets established, even then no, it is too bulky and unwieldy in comparison to marijuana or other drugs. Sure there will be less, but it would be easier for someone underage to get it, the criminals who will be in it for a quick easy profit have no concern on who they would sell it to.
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During prohibition, do know whether underage drinking was as much of a problem as it is now? I understand that we are discussing different eras, but I'd be curious as to know whether this is supposition on your part or whether there is any statistics.

Also, I believe that during prohibition, the availability of alcohol was pretty level after an initial bottoming out. And this level was far under the level when it is legal. It would be less available to kids because it would be less available at all.

I think the problem here is that some do not realize how prevalent and available marijuana is, there are NO SUPPLY SIDE ISSUES at all.
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Supply is irrelevant. What some do not understand is the human psychology of crime. If you make something legal, it becomes more socially acceptable. It will become more mainstream and be more available, hence people, including kids, will find it easier to obtain, less risk to obtain, and be more likely to use.
 
marduc said:
huh??? I am really trying to make a concerted effort to make sense of this post.. really.
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Fair enough, let me know when you've graduated 2nd grade and we'll review :2wave:
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
During prohibition, do know whether underage drinking was as much of a problem as it is now? I understand that we are discussing different eras, but I'd be curious as to know whether this is supposition on your part or whether there is any statistics.
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No I don't think they were doing Zogby polls then :( I was referring to what would happen in present day, and I know prohibition is all that we have to go by. The whole premise (what if alcohol were illegal) is supposition, so it is kind of unrealistic to back up supposition with fact.

Also, I believe that during prohibition, the availability of alcohol was pretty level after an initial bottoming out. And this level was far under the level when it is legal. It would be less available to kids because it would be less available at all.
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There is no issue with availability of marijuana.





Supply is irrelevant. What some do not understand is the human psychology of crime. If you make something legal, it becomes more socially acceptable. It will become more mainstream and be more available, hence people, including kids, will find it easier to obtain, less risk to obtain, and be more likely to use.
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See above regarding supply/availability.

Kids are doing it regardless of its legality, part of its charm for many is that it is an expression of a tendency to be rebellious when a teenager.
Plain and simple.. if a kid wants it he can get it, the legality is not a deterrent, we have a 34 year old "War On Drugs" that is an abject failure, and has not stopped kids from getting it. I will grant you that for a few it is a deterrent, but for many it is not, in fact its illegality is part of its appeal, that was certainly the case for me and I can attest likewise for many of my peers at the time, you know rebellious teenage years and all.
 
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Jerry said:
Fair enough, let me know when you've graduated 2nd grade and we'll review :2wave:
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no seriously do explain yourself, there was a major disconnect and I could not for the life of me pick up the logic you were attempting to convey.
 
A situation I was quite familiar with as a teenager. we can argue back and forth on this, but yes, marijuana is easier to get than beer for a kid:

A 2002 drug survey by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University revealed that schoolchildren across the country say it is easier for them to buy marijuana than it is to buy beer and cigarettes.(10) How can that be?

The answer is really not very complicated. When I first worked undercover, I was hanging out with about 20 kids in front of a bowling alley at a suburban strip-mall. They were not criminals... "They were not selling drugs they were simply accommodating friends."... No profit was made on the transactions. Most probably didn't even earn enough to pay for their gas...

None of them were 21 years old but they could and did sell me any kind of illegal drugs you can name. However, they often came up to me and said, "Hey Jack, we're thirsty - will you go into the liquor store and buy us some beer? We can't buy beer." They could get all the illegal drugs they wanted but couldn't buy beer. How can that be?

The answer is so simple that it has apparently never occurred to our drug czars. Beer and cigarettes are legal commodities and the people who sell them are licensed to do so. Selling those drugs is the way they make their livelihood and they will do whatever they can to protect those licenses.
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Source:LEAP - Publications › Publications - Jack Cole › End Prohibition Now!
 
marduc said:
No I don't think they were doing Zogby polls then :( I was referring to what would happen in present day, and I know prohibition is all that we have to go by. The whole premise (what if alcohol were illegal) is supposition, so it is kind of unrealistic to back up supposition with fact.
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We would see something similar. Instead of 6 or 7 bars and 4 restaurants with bars in a town, you'd have 3 or 4 speakeasies. It would be less available because of it's illegality.

There is no issue with availability of marijuana.
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Good, go over to the local supermarket and pick up some. Oh, wait...

If it were legal, it would be more available because of it's legality.

See above regarding supply/availability.
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See above regarding supply/availability.

Kids are doing it regardless of its legality, part of its charm for many is that it is an expression of a tendency to be rebellious when a teenager.
Plain and simple.. if a kid wants it he can get it, the legality is not a deterrent, we have a 34 year old "War On Drugs" that is an abject failure, and has not stopped kids from getting it. I will grant you that for a few it is a deterrent, but for many it is not, in fact its illegality is part of its appeal, that was certainly the case for me and I can attest likewise for many of my peers at the time, you know rebellious teenage years and all.
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Far fewer kids use marijuana then use alcohol. Legality is one reason. Make it legal and it will be more socially acceptable and more available, therefore some of those "cusp" kids will be more apt to use it.

And since both are/would be illegal for kids, legality is irrelevant. Availability is the issue. If it is legal, it will be around and in the open more often.
 
marduc said:
A situation I was quite familiar with as a teenager. we can argue back and forth on this, but yes, marijuana is easier to get than beer for a kid:




Source:LEAP - Publications › Publications - Jack Cole › End Prohibition Now!
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I'll see that and raise you this:

Alcohol use among adolescents is a prominent health problem. Adolescents use alcohol more frequently than all other drugs combined. According to a survey conducted in 2002, 19.6% of 8th graders, 35.4% of 10th graders, and 48.6% of 12th graders report using alcohol in the preceding 30 days. Furthermore, 78% of high school seniors report having tried alcohol at least once. Additionally, 6.7%, 18.3%, and 30.3% of 8th, 10th, and 12th graders, respectively, reported having been drunk in the preceding 30 days. In 1999, 20% of all alcoholic beverages purchased were consumed by underage drinkers

According to the 2004 Monitoring the Future Survey, approximately 46% of 12th graders reported using marijuana at some point in their lives, while 21% reported using marijuana in the past month. Thirty-five percent of 10th graders and 16% of 8th graders reported using marijuana at least one time, and 16% of 10th graders and 6% of 8th graders reported marijuana use in the past month. The study found a slight decrease in use compared to prevalence in 2003 and a statistically significant decrease compared to peak levels of use in 1996.

http://www.bu.edu/atssa/Resources/Publications/Drugs_of_Abuse.pdf
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78% alcohol vs. 46% marijuana. I win.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Good, go over to the local supermarket and pick up some. Oh, wait...

If it were legal, it would be more available because of it's legality.
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Not necessarily. If you were to require a license for production/distrubution and limit the amount of licenses doled out, it would be less available. You would have to ensure to not regulate it so much so that drug dealers could sell it for cheaper prices, but that really wouldn't be difficult.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
We would see something similar. Instead of 6 or 7 bars and 4 restaurants with bars in a town, you'd have 3 or 4 speakeasies. It would be less available because of it's illegality.
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And those 3 or 4 speakeasies would have no qualms selling it to someone that was under 21, whereas the 6 or 7 bars and 4 restaurants do.

Good, go over to the local supermarket and pick up some. Oh, wait...

If it were legal, it would be more available because of it's legality.
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No need to I have a phone and any one of numerous numbers I could call despite not using it for well over a year, most of them would still be up, supermarket is closed :( If I REALLY wanted to I could drive down to Robbles Park and get swarmed by 14 year old kids with handfuls of dime bags too. nevermind that it is 3 am.

See above regarding supply/availability.
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in reference to what I had quoted you on when you were using prohibition availability as part of your argument immediately prior to saying supply did not matter.


Far fewer kids use marijuana then use alcohol. Legality is one reason. Make it legal and it will be more socially acceptable and more available, therefore some of those "cusp" kids will be more apt to use it.
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I will give you Alcohol use is higher among teenagers, as it is with our population as a whole, this will not change it is our preferred drug of choice. Many people simply do not like the feeling of being high, others do not like the idea of inhaling smoke.

here another tidbit:
One of the ironies of the drug war is that where it was been waged most loudly and enthusiastically is precisely the place where teen drug use is now most entrenched. Conversely where drug war rhetoric is comparatively mute, teen usage of illicit drugs is much lower. In the Netherlands, for example, which has the most liberal drug policy in Europe and where marijuana is effectively legal, marijuana use among teens is actually lower than in the United States. The survey found 28% of Dutch teens smoked marijuana as compared with 41% of American teens, and 23% of American teens had experimented with other illicit drugs as compared with only 6% of European teens.

But when it comes to legal drugs, such as cigarettes and alcohol, teen usage is much higher in Europe. Thirty-seven percent of European teens had smoked cigarettes in the past month as compared with only 26% of Americans. Sixty-one percent of European teens had consumed alcohol as compared with only 40% of Americans.

When asked about the disparity, Kevin Zeese of Common Sense for Drug Policy pointed to the lure of the forbidden as a major factor. "It is worth pointing out that the Dutch, when they made marijuana available for purchase, said one reason they were doing so was to 'make marijuana boring,'" Zeese told DRCNet.

"Our approach, making marijuana a forbidden fruit where the primary educators on the topic are DARE police officers, has the opposite effect. We make marijuana a magnet for the natural rebellious period of the teen years," Zeese explained. "The laws are easy to break, highlighted in ads and schools, the schools lie about the dangers of marijuana and police are the messengers -- that all adds up to a recipe for encouraging, rather than discouraging teen use. Then, our failure to separate the marijuana market from other illegal drug markets makes it natural to purchase other drugs from the high school dealer.
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European Study of Teen Drug Use Suggests Impact of Drug Policy is: (A) Paradoxical (B) Irrelevant


And since both are/would be illegal for kids, legality is irrelevant. Availability is the issue. If it is legal, it will be around and in the open more often.
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I agree legality is irrelevant for kids, it is illegal either way, but you are using legality as your argument still, and there you go saying availability is the issue again :D
 
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CaptainCourtesy said:
We would see something similar.

Far fewer kids use marijuana then use alcohol. Legality is one reason. Make it legal and it will be more socially acceptable and more available, therefore some of those "cusp" kids will be more apt to use it.
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Marijuana is already glorified in movies like Harold and Kumar go to White Castle and Road Trip, even more so than alcohol, so for kids it is already "socially acceptable". But in the event of legalization, California could enforce a special tax for marijuana and use its profits to launch a new anti-drug program, making aware the effects of marijuana.

And you know how everyone tags marijuana as "the gateway drug?" It is a gateway drug, but that is because in order to attain it you need to be involved in illicit activity. Activity that is much worse than alcohol, unless kids were to be buying from moonshiners(have to be some really dumb kids). The same sketchy drug dealer in the back of the park likely sells other drugs, and will try to sell those drugs to you.

Not to mention that with government regulation, marijuana that is laced with much more dangerous drugs or kept in heinous conditions(smugglers sometimes keep marijuana in washing fluid to hide the scent) would be diminished.
 
Tubub said:
Marijuana is already glorified in movies like Harold and Kumar go to White Castle and Road Trip, even more so than alcohol, so for kids it is already "socially acceptable".
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This is very true.
 
Tubub said:
And you know how everyone tags marijuana as "the gateway drug?" It is a gateway drug, but that is because in order to attain it you need to be involved in illicit activity. Activity that is much worse than alcohol, unless kids were to be buying from moonshiners(have to be some really dumb kids). The same sketchy drug dealer in the back of the park likely sells other drugs, and will try to sell those drugs to you.
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This is very true. ;)
 
Tubub said:
Not necessarily. If you were to require a license for production/distrubution and limit the amount of licenses doled out, it would be less available. You would have to ensure to not regulate it so much so that drug dealers could sell it for cheaper prices, but that really wouldn't be difficult.
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Can't move the goalposts. If we are comparing it to alcohol, the parameters must match. Those that you identified above, don't.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Can't move the goalposts. If we are comparing it to alcohol, the parameters must match. Those that you identified above, don't.
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Both cigerettes and alcohol are drugs. Yet different rules and regulations exist for each(Must be 21 to drink alcohol vs. 18 to smoke, cannot drink and drive vs. no law against smoking and driving, can drink inside but cannot smoke inside ect. ect) because they are different drugs.

I didn't really get what you meant by saying I wasn't staying in the boundaries... you need an alcohol license to produce and distribute alcohol, so aren't I staying in the parameters?
 
marduc said:
And those 3 or 4 speakeasies would have no qualms selling it to someone that was under 21, whereas the 6 or 7 bars and 4 restaurants do.
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And yet with government enforcement, people would be far more concerned about bringing alcohol home from a speakeasy than from a liquor store. Kids get a lot of their alcohol from home. Less availability.

No need to I have a phone and any one of numerous numbers I could call despite not using it for well over a year, most of them would still be up, supermarket is closed :( If I REALLY wanted to I could drive down to Robbles Park and get swarmed by 14 year old kids with handfuls of dime bags too. nevermind that it is 3 am.
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And pass 8 bars and 12 liquor stores on the way. Or go to your friend's house where the liquor cabinet is unlocked...or your own house. You don't have to call anyone or go anywhere.

I will give you Alcohol use is higher among teenagers, as it is with our population as a whole, this will not change it is our preferred drug of choice. Many people simply do not like the feeling of being high, others do not like the idea of inhaling smoke.
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So, if this is the case, then your argument doesn't seem pertinent. Others have said, in this thread, that the feeling of alcohol is far worse, in many ways, than the feeling of marijuana. You are contradicting yourself.

here another tidbit:


European Study of Teen Drug Use Suggests Impact of Drug Policy is: (A) Paradoxical (B) Irrelevant
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Sorry, the numbers I posted refute those that you did. And mine were from an American study, yours were from an European study of Americans. Mine would get the nod from a validity standpoint.

I agree legality is irrelevant for kids, it is illegal either way, but you are using legality as your argument still, and there you go saying availability is the issue again :D
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You are missing the point. Legality is irrelevant for the motivation for kids, but it is relevant for the drug's availability for kids to obtain.
 
Tubub said:
Both cigerettes and alcohol are drugs. Yet different rules and regulations exist for each(Must be 21 to drink alcohol vs. 18 to smoke, cannot drink and drive vs. no law against smoking and driving, can drink inside but cannot smoke inside ect. ect) because they are different drugs.
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True and this affects the usage. Legality affects availability. I know far more teens that smoke regularly than those that drink regularly.

I didn't really get what you meant by saying I wasn't staying in the boundaries... you need an alcohol license to produce and distribute alcohol, so aren't I staying in the parameters?
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If you are going to put more restrictions on licensing marijuana, then it's availability and usage will be altered. Your alcohol vs. cigarette example is a good one to illustrate this.
 
Lerxst said:
For what it's worth I see that you are for legalizing it, you are simply trying to stimulate conversation around the topic and dig into the negatives of legalization...not just the positives.
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There are surely positives.

1. liberty
2. income for the state, as I was corrected on the tax issue
3. glacoma and cancer patients will have some relief.


etc, etc,


What i take exception to is the daily, chronic user who makes his life revolve around it. I have not paitents for such people.....
 
disneydude said:
Where did I ever say that you said "every". Why don't you go back and read the posts....I know you are smarter than this.

Your original argument was the pretty much all of the people that you know who smoke weed make weed about their life. That they become all absorbed in it.

I think that is FAR from the truth.
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Post #12
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057957937-post12.html

""To assume that every person who smoke weed are "Spicollis" as in "Fast times at Ridgemont High" shows that you have little understanding of the world around you."


and not this is not what I said, I was very clear as to who I view in this light. Again, show me where I was not talking about daily chronic users who make thier livers revolve around weed, and talking about "everyone"


And yes, I am that smart. :mrgreen:
 
Ethereal said:
I don't follow. Are you suggesting that drug laws stop people from becoming drug-addicts?
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:lol: i think the drug laws create more desire, and more desire leads to addiction. ;) weed is not physically addicting though.

i never made this argument. you asked about.

Sorta like when they went from .10 to point .08, you created more drunks on the road. Not addressed the guy who downed a 12 pack and went for a joy ride.


So long as you can admit that said statement was indeed hyperbole I won't take any issue with your latter presumption e.g., that legalization will not solve California's economic woes. I certainly feel it would be financially beneficial but I concur that it is no panacea.
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agreed.



I agree. Drug addiction is harmful but I fail to see how this is pertinent. Nobody is condoning or encouraging drug addiction as far as I know.
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agreed.


I couldn't say, but it's not really my concern.
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nor mine, it was however a point that one personally should consider. ;)
 
Lerxst said:
I've met plenty of alcoholics who were hopelessly lost causes. Beat their spouses, drive drunk, get into frequent fights, etc. I've never once, not in my entire life (with 14 years on the enforcement side) met somebody actually addicted to marijuana. .
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I was at legal seafood the other day, and met this dood who flipped his car from passing out across the street from his house, pending second dui.

He then started telling me a story about his alchoholic friend as he downed about 8 glasses of wine in about half an hour.....


He was ok though because he was calling his teenage daughter to pick drunk daddy up somewhere he was going to drive to.


This was Wednesday around 1pm. :doh



It is amazing what some people are.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I was at legal seafood the other day, and met this dood who flipped his car from passing out across the street from his house, pending second dui.

He then started telling me a story about his alchoholic friend as he downed about 8 glasses of wine in about half an hour.....


He was ok though because he was calling his teenage daughter to pick drunk daddy up somewhere he was going to drive to.


This was Wednesday around 1pm. :doh



It is amazing what some people are.
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I hate hearing stories like this. Firstly, it sounds like he was practically "proud" of his friend's idiotic driving exploits, and secondly, getting his kid to help out this alcoholic is both enabling and emotionally harmful to the kid.

This guy sounds like a real loser.
 
There is some great conversation going on here, but the more I read this the more I get the feeling we are stuck in a rut on the whole "alcohol prohibition" vs. "marijuana prohibition" thing. The bottom line on this is that we know prohibition didn't work then and isn't working now. However comparing the two and drawing accurate correlations seems to be rather tricky. We are talking different times, different enforcement techniques, different social situations, and a much different product. Technology, smuggling methods, ability to conceal on your person, social situations, political situations, enforcement techniques, punishment, etc...all of this is much different today.

It really doesn't matter if more is available and if kids will have more access to it. Look at alcohol. Weed isn't ever going away. What can go away is the violence and criminality associated with it. What we can get is, as has been pointed out, much needed tax revenue, jobs, and some measure of financial relief to our overburdened criminal justice/penal system.

I've yet to see a down side to the idea of legalizing marijuana.
 
Jerry said:
That's the dumbest idea since Obama thinking he could spend his way out of debt.
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Title of the thread is?
your post is in the wrong thread.
besides, he never said he would spend us out of debt. Spend us out of recession, maybe, but debt, who would say that?
that is impossible, given the amount of debt the we hae accumulated thanks to Reagan, and Bush, and Bush.....
Taxing weed might be a good idea, though. I suggest all taxes gathered from tobacco, alcohol, and weed be used to pay off the debt we owe the chinese...
 
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