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Thread: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

  1. #51
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Firstly, when you make a qualifier as "generally" you weaken your argument, considerably. Secondly, my argument is around the legality, not whether there is a victim.
    You will always find exceptions to everything. I have to say generally otherwise someone will say "nuh uh, so and so did this for that or some other thing."

    I understand legality.

    Laws are intended to prevent one person from doing something to another person or if a law was broken to have some sort of remedy for the person wronged.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You will always find exceptions to everything. I have to say generally otherwise someone will say "nuh uh, so and so did this for that or some other thing."
    Always wise in debate.

    I understand legality.

    Laws are intended to prevent one person from doing something to another person or if a law was broken to have some sort of remedy for the person wronged.
    Correct. Hence, would you rather have anthrax sold at a convenience store or by a violent street gang? I understand the argument you were trying to make. All I'm saying is that it wasn't a great argument. If marijuana were illegal, I would not want it sold either place. If it were legal, I would want it sold in a convenience store. Same with anthrax.
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    With historical perspective in mind it was created to stop the states from raising tariffs on other states for protectionist reasons.

    It was clearly designed to regulate commerce between the states.
    Is that why when the supreme court delegated on whether medical marijuana can be legally distributed they pointed to the commerce clause in the 10th Amendment to showing why it can not be legally distributed in any state.

    Gonzales V. Raich

    Laws applied:

    U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, cl. 3, 18 (the Commerce and Necessary and Proper Clauses); Controlled Substances Act, 21 U.S.C. §§ 801-971 (2000); Compassionate Use Act of 1996, Cal. Health & Safety Code § 11362.5 (West Supp. 2005)

    Gonzales v. Raich (previously Ashcroft v. Raich), 545 U.S. 1 (2005), was a case in which the United States Supreme Court ruled on June 6, 2005 that under the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution, which allows the United States Congress "To regulate Commerce... among the several States," Congress may ban the use of cannabis even where states approve its use for medicinal purposes.
    If they can ban it for medical purposes, what will stop them from banning it for common sale?

    Your argument is nil.
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Always wise in debate.
    You know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Correct. Hence, would you rather have anthrax sold at a convenience store or by a violent street gang? I understand the argument you were trying to make. All I'm saying is that it wasn't a great argument. If marijuana were illegal, I would not want it sold either place. If it were legal, I would want it sold in a convenience store. Same with anthrax.
    Anthrax well you can actually find it in soil where farm animals are or have been.

    It has a long dormant live span.

    But seriously having violent gangs sell it is the worse of the two.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    Is that why when the supreme court delegated on whether medical marijuana can be legally distributed they pointed to the commerce clause in the 10th Amendment to showing why it can not be legally distributed in any state.

    Gonzales V. Raich

    Laws applied:

    U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, cl. 3, 18 (the Commerce and Necessary and Proper Clauses); Controlled Substances Act, 21 U.S.C. §§ 801-971 (2000); Compassionate Use Act of 1996, Cal. Health & Safety Code § 11362.5 (West Supp. 2005)



    If they can ban it for medical purposes, what will stop them from banning it for common sale?

    Your argument is nil.
    Yea I understand that the supreme court perverts the constitution all the time.

    The original intention was to regulate commerce between the states.
    They were having trade wars more or less under the Articles of Confederation.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    Is that why when the supreme court delegated on whether medical marijuana can be legally distributed they pointed to the commerce clause in the 10th Amendment to showing why it can not be legally distributed in any state.

    Gonzales V. Raich

    Laws applied:

    U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, cl. 3, 18 (the Commerce and Necessary and Proper Clauses); Controlled Substances Act, 21 U.S.C. §§ 801-971 (2000); Compassionate Use Act of 1996, Cal. Health & Safety Code § 11362.5 (West Supp. 2005)



    If they can ban it for medical purposes, what will stop them from banning it for common sale?

    Your argument is nil.
    Gonzales V. Raich is the only thing holding this together too. As Clarence Thomas wrote in his dissention on the decision:

    If the Federal Government can regulate growing a half-dozen cannabis plants for personal consumption (not because it is interstate commerce, but because it is inextricably bound up with interstate commerce), then Congress' Article I powers -- as expanded by the Necessary and Proper Clause -- have no meaningful limits. Whether Congress aims at the possession of drugs, guns, or any number of other items, it may continue to "appropria[te] state police powers under the guise of regulating commerce."

    If the majority is to be taken seriously, the Federal Government may now regulate quilting bees, clothes drives, and potluck suppers throughout the 50 States. This makes a mockery of Madison's assurance to the people of New York that the "powers delegated" to the Federal Government are "few and defined", while those of the States are "numerous and indefinite."
    This is going to be challenged from another angle soon if and when AB 390 passes. I disagree with this ruling and Thomas summed it up well. This is in no way a matter of interstate commerce, Gonzales V. Reich unfortunately went by without any fanfare or notice; however it will soon be under the magnifying glass.
    Last edited by marduc; 03-14-09 at 05:29 AM.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I had long been a supporter of not legalizing marijuana. This is one of the issues that folks at DP have changed my mind on. I do not smoke, nor do I have any intention of smoking. My reason for the legalization of marijuana is to end the stupid, money wasting war on drugs, and use the money towards something far more valuable: rehabilitation. Not every person who tries alcohol or marijuana becomes an addict, but some do. And with the out of control costs of mental healthcare/rehab services, many of these people will remain addicted...and continue to be unproductive members of society. With my plan, the war on drugs is abandoned. Marijuana is taxed. All monies spent on the war on drugs, and 25% of all taxes collected from marijuana (and alcohol, too) are placed in a fund for rehabilitation services. Those that want to get help for their addiction, but who cannot afford it, with be "scholarshiped" (based on a screening with specific criteria). Other services that these people can receive would be temporary subsidized housing and job training.

    Our money would be far better spent attempting to rehabiliated those whose only crime is marijuana use than locking these people up in jails.

    Disclaimer: This is the bare bones of my plan. If you want more details, please ask.
    It is seriously late here (ironically as I look at the clock 4:20) or I would address this, and other points brought up in more detail.
    real quickly however,

    My thoughts on how legalization should work is very similar to what you outlined; however why limit it to marijuana? We can virtually eliminate drug cartels, gangs and drug related violence overnight by simply taking control of distribution out of their hands completely and put them out of business. Obviously there is much more behind the argument, and I am leaving myself wide open, but it is way late, and I am too tired to go into full detail.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yea I understand that the supreme court perverts the constitution all the time.

    The original intention was to regulate commerce between the states.
    They were having trade wars more or less under the Articles of Confederation.
    The fact being the law is in the book and the ruling has been made, until that ruling is changed, California legalization will not stand.

    The original intention which, who was implemented by FDR, was to ban the sale/possession of foreign goods coming into the US. FDR passed this amendment inorder to boost US trade between states. What it caused was an inverse effect, it prolonged the depression 7 years and caused people to not be able to afford common goods to survive.

    FDR was such a weasel that he knew originally it could not pass with the justices he had on the bench, so he waited tell one of them died, then appointed a liberal democrat from Alabama, Hugo Black a known affiliate to the KKK, which he knew would vote partisanly for him on this measure, allowing the commerce clause to be added to the 10th amendment against what the founders wanted.
    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Gonzales V. Reich is the only thing holding this together too. As Clarence Thomas wrote in his dissention on the decision:

    This is going to be challenged from another angle soon if and when AB 390 passes. I disagree with this ruling and Thomas summed it up well. This is in no way a matter of interstate commerce, Gonzales V. Reich unfortunately went by without any fanfare or notice; however it will soon be under the magnifying glass.
    It really is a travesty, the commerce clause clearly contradicts the 10th amendment itself, I don't see how the supreme court could passed such a measure in the first place.
    The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live. ~ Ayn Rand
    A politician divides mankind into two classes: tools and enemies.~ Nietzsche

  9. #59
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    The fact being the law is in the book and the ruling has been made, until that ruling is changed, California legalization will not stand.

    The original intention which, who was implemented by FDR, was to ban the sale/possession of foreign goods coming into the US. FDR passed this amendment inorder to boost US trade between states. What it caused was an inverse effect, it prolonged the depression 7 years and caused people to not be able to afford common goods to survive.

    FDR was such a weasel that he knew originally it could not pass with the justices he had on the bench, so he waited tell one of them died, then appointed a liberal democrat from Alabama, Hugo Black a known affiliate to the KKK, which he knew would vote partisanly for him on this measure, allowing the commerce clause to be added to the 10th amendment against what the founders wanted.
    FDR was an incredible douche. If I had it my way he would of been yanked into the streets and hung by his tie.

    Don't forget he also threatened the supreme court with adding more justices if they didn't vote his way.

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    It really is a travesty, the commerce clause clearly contradicts the 10th amendment itself, I don't see how the supreme court could passed such a measure in the first place.
    I try to ignore laws that are unconstitutional. They are not valid under any circumstances.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    FDR was an incredible douche. If I had it my way he would of been yanked into the streets and hung by his tie.

    Don't forget he also threatened the supreme court with adding more justices if they didn't vote his way.

    I try to ignore laws that are unconstitutional. They are not valid under any circumstances.
    I totally agree the constitution is being over looked, but the supreme court can always rule in the federal governments favor with the 11th amendment.

    It is the justices that determine how the constitution is read not us, so all we can do is prey they vote in our favor. I voted for Obama partly because when he appoints a justice which he most likely will, that will keep the conservative-liberal balance steady.

    I am traditionally conservative, but balance is needed in the supreme court or you get things like what happened with FDR who did not have a balanced supreme court. We had a very liberal bias and it got us very conflicting laws to what was already put into place.
    The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live. ~ Ayn Rand
    A politician divides mankind into two classes: tools and enemies.~ Nietzsche

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