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Thread: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

  1. #471
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Do you have anything to support this assertion? You know, proof? Perhaps you may want to start with YOUR definition of what is "successful."

    If we look at the Netherlands, I would argue that they are anything BUT successful.
    The Netherlands

    Im sorry, i thought this was common knowledge.

    Dutch Drug Policy Even More Effective

    I will need a little more proof than "because you say so." It is a funny quirk of mine, I expect people who make statements like yours to back them up with some substance.

    As that famous commercial said; "where's the beef?"
    Do you know any weed dealers? I do, and all of them, yes all do not want cannabis to be legalized. Yet i do not expect you to take this as evidence. Do you understand the economic nature of black markets? If so, please do explain.

    [QUOTE]I must have missed it; please point me to the thread where you made such a sound and logical argument as to why legalization reduces illicit drugs and the substantive proof that supports it.

    Really...: http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057960715-post315.html



    Why are you asking me to support your argument; why don't you lay out what you believe will happen to the price of drugs if they are legalized?
    I am asking what you believe would happen.



    Please refrain from arguments that basically suggest "because you say so."
    Is the price of cannabis in the Netherlands cheaper than that of the US, with superior quality?
    Last edited by Kushinator; 03-18-09 at 09:52 PM.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Please source. Decriminalization and legalization are entirely different animals. Show me what country has legalized cannabis, just one. Then show me what countries have decriminalized the limited sale of cannabis in a commercial setting.

    Ill wait.
    I have to say this is one of the oddest threads in which I've ever participated. I continue to be meet with responses or challenges such as this that have zero bearing on the substance of my post. Zero.

    For some reason, anyone posting in this thread who doesn't rush to support legalization is presumed to oppose it. As I've said earlier... I don't have a strong position one way or the other. While I've never been a pot smoker, I don't believe it's dangerous. What does concern me is that I've yet to see any coherent position as to what form 'legalization' would take.

    As we know, countries such as Canada and the Netherlands haven't legalized marijuana in the true sense. But they have decriminalized possession of small amounts. Or even the sale of small amounts in 'coffee shops.' That is much different than legalization across the board. And frankly, I've yet to see anyone explain exactly what legalization would look like. Could you smoke it anywhere other than the privacy of your own home? Where would it be bought and sold? At 7-11 next to the cigarettes? At government controlled facilities? Could you buy any quantity you desire? Will there be national laws governing legalization? State laws? Or local laws? Could my state continue to keep it illegal? And if so, what penalty could be imposed on someone mistakenly crossing the border with a joint? Jail time? What about our International Treaty Obligations to prevent marijuana trafficking? Will be continue to uphold those obligations? Could you grow your own? Could you sell seeds and cultivate it in your back yard or in your greenhouse? How many plants could you grow? Or would there be no limit?

    Considering the ease with which anti-smoking legislation seems to be passing these days, I see no reason to believe that pro-legalization folks will be happy letting local voters address most of these issues. I suspect they'd be quite disappointed in the outcome if any of this were placed on the ballot. That's no 'appeal to the majority.' That's simply reality. A reality that I've not seen faced seriously here so far.

    I've asked questions like this before in the thread and have been met with vague answers. To say that we'll simply "treat it like cigarettes and alcohol" simply doesn't answer these questions.

    What's the plan?


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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Proof?




    Proof?
    YouTube - Marijuana-Inc {part 1}

    YouTube - Marijuana-Inc {part 2}

    YouTube - Marijuana-Inc {part 3}

    YouTube - Marijuana-Inc {part 4}



    How is this related to the topic at hand? Do you think Blue Liquor laws do not reduce business revenue and if so how; in other words "proof?"
    It was in response to James. Here is an interesting article:Will the Recession Doom the Last Sunday Blue Laws? - TIME
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  4. #474
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post

    What's the plan?

    Many of the questions you have asked here you have asked previously and have had many people answer. These answers are all speculation on our part. Do you want the pro-legalization DP members to form a committee and develop a master plan for marijuana legalization that will be the guiding light for the future of our country??

    This seems like a good plan to me:

    AB 390 Assembly Bill - INTRODUCED

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    I have to say this is one of the oddest threads in which I've ever participated. I continue to be meet with responses or challenges such as this that have zero bearing on the substance of my post. Zero.

    For some reason, anyone posting in this thread who doesn't rush to support legalization is presumed to oppose it. As I've said earlier... I don't have a strong position one way or the other. While I've never been a pot smoker, I don't believe it's dangerous. What does concern me is that I've yet to see any coherent position as to what form 'legalization' would take.

    As we know, countries such as Canada and the Netherlands haven't legalized marijuana in the true sense. But they have decriminalized possession of small amounts. Or even the sale of small amounts in 'coffee shops.' That is much different than legalization across the board. And frankly, I've yet to see anyone explain exactly what legalization would look like. Could you smoke it anywhere other than the privacy of your own home? Where would it be bought and sold? At 7-11 next to the cigarettes? At government controlled facilities? Could you buy any quantity you desire? Will there be national laws governing legalization? State laws? Or local laws? Could my state continue to keep it illegal? And if so, what penalty could be imposed on someone mistakenly crossing the border with a joint? Jail time? What about our International Treaty Obligations to prevent marijuana trafficking? Will be continue to uphold those obligations? Could you grow your own? Could you sell seeds and cultivate it in your back yard or in your greenhouse? How many plants could you grow? Or would there be no limit?

    Considering the ease with which anti-smoking legislation seems to be passing these days, I see no reason to believe that pro-legalization folks will be happy letting local voters address most of these issues. I suspect they'd be quite disappointed in the outcome if any of this were placed on the ballot. That's no 'appeal to the majority.' That's simply reality. A reality that I've not seen faced seriously here so far.

    I've asked questions like this before in the thread and have been met with vague answers. To say that we'll simply "treat it like cigarettes and alcohol" simply doesn't answer these questions.

    What's the plan?

    Drug possession and use is a victimless crime. The consumption of potentially harmful substances via the long run is not illegal. Therefore the entire premise as to why it is even legal is in fact unsound and invalid. The marijuana tax act was not democratically invoked. Why do some believe populist regard is relevant in the legalizing?

    Personally, i believe all drugs should be legalized, and allowed to be manufactured by firms to provide quality, purity, and lower prices. Of course there should be some guidelines set forth to achieve these goals, and the most efficient mechanism should be through simple excise.

    In the Netherlands, i can walk into any bar and get served alcohol to the max without ever have been ID'd. On the contrary, if i walk into a "cafe", i will be carded every time, even if i leave real quick to get a beer next door, and then come back. So age requirements are another "issue", and should be examined to further provide the actual numbers.

    As far as price, i can get hydroponic NYC Red Sour Diesel for about 15 Euro's per gram, or 60 Euro's per 6 grams (the legal limit allowed to be purchased at one time). In the US, that same strain, grown hydroponically fetches up to $2000/oz or about $70 bucks per gram. Of course you can find it a bit cheaper, but do not look to pay anything less than $30. Now i am not expecting you to believe me, so the next time you go to Amsterdam, or Holland in general, take a peek at a coffee shop and the prices.

    My plan is to legalize drugs, regulate for some sort of transparent safety (to prevent harmful dilution), tax up the wazzu, and allow supply to really flood the market. Drug gangs will cease to exist, as they will be much less efficient than legitimate businesses who provide quality products at competitive prices.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  6. #476
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    That is basically the gist of it, better products at lower prices = no more demand for the black market, and the ability to regulate it and control it. A bit of taxation to fund treatment, and education (not lies however), and a bit more taxation to help feed the government spending monster and we have a much more realistic approach to our drug problems.

    We can tax drugs HEAVILY and still be well below black market prices.

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    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Many of the questions you have asked here you have asked previously and have had many people answer.
    But the answers have frequently been wildly inconsistent.

    These answers are all speculation on our part.
    Which is why they've been wildly inconsistent. That's been the thrust of my argument all along.

    Do you want the pro-legalization DP members to form a committee and develop a master plan for marijuana legalization that will be the guiding light for the future of our country??
    I don't care who does it. But those who want marijuana legalized nationally will need such a plan.

    This seems like a good plan to me:

    AB 390 Assembly Bill - INTRODUCED
    Thanks. I'll look at it.


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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    This entire thread is based on that legislation (AB 390), part of why it seemed odd you kept asking for a plan.

    different people have widely disparate thoughts on any given subject, so it is only natural you would get varied answers.

    There have been numerous so called plans and ideas presented over the years at how it would get implemented, but ultimately it is the state legislating the control measures, and they are the ones who have to devise and vote upon a specific plan.

    Just as with alcohol and tobacco and traffic laws, and taxes, and countless other issues each state will have its own plan. It is silly for us to devise a specific plan. I am for a balanced budget, but it would be idiotic of me to attempt to write the budget.

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    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    This entire thread is based on that legislation (AB 390), part of why it seemed odd you kept asking for a plan.
    No more odd than the fact that few if any of the posters supporting legalization have bothered to reference it in their detailed responses. In fact, I imagine few of the supporters of legalization have read it through from beginning to end.


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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    No more odd than the fact that few if any of the posters supporting legalization have bothered to reference it in their detailed responses. In fact, I imagine few of the supporters of legalization have read it through from beginning to end.

    True, i did not hear of it until Marduc posted it here.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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