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Thread: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    It seems as if you're trying to convince me that the example of a logic fallacy I gave is, indeed, a logic fallacy. Rather odd.

    That does not mean discussion of 'majority opinion' is necessarily a logic fallacy. In fact, understanding majority and minority opinions is usually crucial to understanding the issue under debate. So no, I've not appealed to the majority. I've simply asked you to explain it. Which you attempt to do later, because, I suspect, you understand it's not a logic fallacy at all, but extremely relevant to the issue.
    Why are you asking me to explain it? Is it because you're incapable of figuring it out on your own or because you feel the answer will provide insight into the validity of drug laws? If it's the former, then I do not care to accommodate you, if it's the latter, then you are, in fact, making a direct appeal to the majority, in which case, you are engaging in logical fallacy.

    Personally, I would rather move on to more substantive issues regarding drug policies in the US.

    I don't know why not. I suspect neither of us were around in the early 1900's when marijuana laws were first put in place in the U.S. So we must rely on research. I expect you're bright enough to research the history of Dutch laws, or British laws, or Turkish laws, no?
    So, you want to analyze the various unique and complex, legal and historical circumstances surrounding the respective drug policies of every nation in the world, and use this information to construct a comprehensive and generalized understanding of how humans perceive drugs? Why not, instead of worrying about what other countries do, we concentrate on the historical and legal circumstances surrounding American drug policy?

    The problem some of us are having is that relevance or irrelevance seems to change from post to post. For instance, some supporters of legalization deny that 'drug tourism' will take place if pot is legalized in California. Others acknowledge that it will take place, but suggest that it will be a good thing by helping out California's economy. So even among advocates, there doesn't seem to be a coherent position as to what may or may not happen if marijuana is legalized. And I suspect that lack of a coherent position is one of the primary reasons Americans don't support legalization.
    The only thing that is relevant to a practice's legality is the US Constitution. That is what I am interested in discussing.

    As I demonstrated in a previous post, most Americans NOW understand the relative dangers of alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana. So this idea that Americans are still having the wool pulled over their eyes, or aren't willing to accept basic facts about marijuana due to some ongoing misinformation campaign just isn't supported by the evidence.

    But here it is again, a fairly recent opinion poll of Americans from NORML, Zogby Poll:
    A personal opinion does not necessarily translate into a willingness to be publicly vocal on an issue, nor is it indicative of a proper understanding of the issue. Just because a majority of Americans feel this way about marijuana does not mean they are willing to have an open and honest dialogue about it. I feel there is still a stigma attached to marijuana and that said stigma is largely institutionalized. How many Americans, for instance, would risk telling their coworkers or their relatives how they really feel about marijuana, or anything controversial for that matter?

    Well I'm curious why you believe politicians such as Obama, without doubt the most liberal president of our time, is inclined to oppose legalization. Do you believe he's appealing to a socially conservative base?
    In a way, yes. I don't think Obama is willing to sacrifice a measure of his political capital in order to legalize marijuana. More importantly, the US government has maintained a consistently negative view of marijuana and drugs in general, so the idea that a coward like Obama would reverse this institutional trend is absurd.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Why do we have to have to base it on a model of another country when we have a 75 straight years of experience and legislation controlling a much more debilitating and dangerous substance right here in our own country?

    We can analyze data from the actions of other countries since we have none of our own to guide us in direct relation to marijuana itself, but we don't need to go reinventing the wheel based on what works for another country. We need to do what works for our country.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart
    For instance, some supporters of legalization deny that 'drug tourism' will take place if pot is legalized in California.
    I reread this thread from the point where you asked about drug tourism, I did not see any denials that this would occur. I did see someone say why drive to California to get pot when you can get it fed ex'd. A good parallel is people going to Napa Valley, that is Alcohol tourism, and a nice getaway. But why go there just to buy a bottle of wine when you can go right down the road to get it. Same with "drug tourism", it is to experience the atmosphere and have a good time while there. It is not to go "stock up"

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    The real question right now is what Arnold is willing to do with his political capitol, or lack thereof.

    If the DEA/medical MJ raids are any indication I think the Obama's administrations stance of letting state law supersede without intervention will remain intact, or at least I hope. At least this is infinity more probable than it has been with prior administrations specifically in regards to MJ. Hopefully if that bridge gets built someone else won't come into office and tear it down.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Why are you asking me to explain it? Is it because you're incapable of figuring it out on your own or because you feel the answer will provide insight into the validity of drug laws? If it's the former, then I do not care to accommodate you, if it's the latter, then you are, in fact, making a direct appeal to the majority, in which case, you are engaging in logical fallacy.

    Personally, I would rather move on to more substantive issues regarding drug policies in the US.
    Which are?


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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Which are?

    Their efficacy and legal validty, or lack thereof.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Their efficacy and legal validty, or lack thereof.
    Forty-some-odd pages already. Think any progress has been made?


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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Forty-some-odd pages already. Think any progress has been made?




    it is amazing how far weed threads always go.
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    it is amazing how far weed threads always go.
    For some folks, weed threads need to progress slowly.

    Sorry. Had to be said.
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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Wow... I've taken the liberty of breaking down your post into its component parts and I've highlighted every bit of it that is either ad hominem, or completely without basis in fact, or just plain illogical.

    Yeah.....let's see your 'analysis'.

    But just for fun, I'll take them on anyway...

    Uh, no. I'm asking tough questions and being met with ad hominems such as this, deflections, and poorly thought-out arguments.
    Your 'tough' questions have all been answered. That you even think they were tough to begin with is laughable. Sorry. Your agenda is see through. Keep asking questions and avoid the actual issue and having to explain why marijuana should remain illegal.

    The criminalization of marijuana in the U.S. had little or nothing to do with religion or conservatism:

    Bio of Harry J. Anslinger
    Really?

    http://www.aarp.org/community/groups...opicId=1541551

    "There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."
    Nothing to do with religion you say?

    No, it remains illegal because even the most liberal politicians who study the issue realize it's a hornet's nest.
    What an appeal to popularity. Even the most liberal of politicians? You mean more liberal the Nanci Pelosi?

    Nancy Pelosi on Drugs

    Pelosi co-sponsored the States' Rights to Medical Marijuana Act:

    Title: To provide for the medical use of marijuana in accordance with the laws of the various States. Summary: Transfers marijuana from schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act to schedule II of such Act. Declares that, in a State in which marijuana may be prescribed or recommended by a physician for medical use under applicable State law, no provision of the Controlled Substances Act shall prohibit or otherwise restrict:

    * the prescription or recommendation of marijuana by a physician for medical use;

    * an individual from obtaining and using marijuana from a physician's prescription or recommendation of marijuana for medical use; or

    * a pharmacy from obtaining and holding marijuana for the prescription or recommendation of marijuana by a physician for medical use under applicable State law.

    * Prohibits any provision of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act from prohibiting or restricting a State entity from producing or distributing marijuana for the purpose of its distribution for prescription or recommendation by a physician in a State in which marijuana may be prescribed by a physician for medical use.
    See I can play your ridiculous little game too.

    Simply not true. You haven't bothered to research your facts. According to polling, most Americans do understand that alcohol and tobacco are more dangerous than marijuana. At the same time, they don't want to legalize it.

    NORML, Zogby Poll
    Oooh a poll :



    Since the late 1960s, Gallup has periodically asked Americans whether the use of marijuana should be made legal in the United States. Although a majority of Americans have consistently opposed the idea of legalizing marijuana, public support has slowly increased over the years. In 1969, just 12% of Americans supported making marijuana legal, but by 1977, roughly one in four endorsed it. Support edged up to 31% in 2000, and now, about a third of Americans say marijuana should be legal.
    Well see? I can play a numbers game too!

    Illogical.

    If asking tough questions and pointing out errors in your facts or logic represents an 'agenda', then so be it. I simply won't what, btw?

    What does my use of alcohol or any other legal substances have to do with legalization of marijuana?

    I've already asked why marijuana should remain illegal. You've failed to provide an answer and have instead chosen to deflect by asking silly questions in ridiculous situational scenarios that YOU know how to answer. 'Should be allowed to drive while buzzed'. I'm not a rocket scientist but I'm pretty sure there's not a single drug or alcoholic substance under which if a cop stopped you you'd get away with anything other then DUI. You know this but yet you still want to pretend like marijuana is ANY different. Then you ask at what age it should be legal to purchase marijuana. This was again answered. Your agenda is see through. You have no argument as to why marijuana should remain illegal other then 'well uh gee we don't know what will happen!'. This doesn't escape anybody who reads your posts. Seriously. It doesn't.

    But what we've established so far. Marijuana has been made illegal NOT because of it's qualities NOT because of scientific research NOT because of any actual logical process NOT for public safety. So why has it been made illegal? You still can't answer and must instead rely on silly appeals to popularity and everything BUT a response.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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