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Thread: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Well... there seems to be a lack of clear thought on most of these issues.

    I've been subject to ad hominem arguments in this thread and accused of 'having an agenda.' Only because I've been pointing out obvious problems and asking tough questions.

    The truth is I've never really had a strong conviction about legalizing marijuana. I don't believe pot is dangerous. But I think there would be some real problems associated with legalizing it. And those problems are apparent when looking at the models in other more liberal countries who've relaxed their rules...

    They're still faced with restrictions on growing, trafficking and distribution. Something that IS a problem not associated with alcohol. I have little doubt, for instance, than many pot-smokers would love to 'grow-their-own.' No restrictions, right? At the same time, they suggest that it would be regulated like alcohol and cigarettes, therefore kept away from kids. But if seeds are legal, and you can 'grow your own,' then the regulation and taxation goes right out the window.

    Your points are valid but do not expect honesty from the legalize drug crowd; that would require removing their willing suspension of disbelief and denial.


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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The above never addressed my question, want to try again?

    Do you honestly think that by legalizing marijuana the drug cartels will be out of business?
    Come on now, try to stay with me here. If taxation (reduced revenue) is detrimental to business, then how does reduced revenue not limit the scope and profitability of drug dealing?

    Its a supply side issue. At lower prices, "firms" are less likely to enter the market on a "per margin" basis. Understand?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Come on now, try to stay with me here. If taxation (reduced revenue) is detrimental to business, then how does reduced revenue not limit the scope and profitability of drug dealing?

    Its a supply side issue. At lower prices, "firms" are less likely to enter the market on a "per margin" basis. Understand?
    So you think that if the State of California taxes marijuana, the drug cartels are going to go out of business because of reduced profitability thanks to the taxes?

    Where do I begin addressing such absurd notions?

    By the way, do you also believe that when corporations and businesses are taxed they do not pass those costs onto their consumers/customers?


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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The above never addressed my question, want to try again?

    Do you honestly think that by legalizing marijuana the drug cartels will be out of business?
    No, but they will have a serious reduction in profit, the only way to put them out of business completely is to legalize and control all drugs, but I am not going to try to shove that horse pill down your mouth.

    Marijuana is far and away their largest cash cow, and a substantial chunk of their profits.

    Will they start focusing more on other drugs like cocaine, and heroine to make up the difference?? yes. However the demand is and will continue to be a small subset of the population. I would in fact argue that it would drop since the ease or temptation to try a little bit of coke because your buddy who you get pot from happens to have it. The wide open pipeline to the black market vending these harder substances will be barricaded. Scores of casual relations nurtured solely for attaining marijuana that so happen to also know where to get other substances would dry up. Harder drugs get tried very often because they just so happen to be at the shelves at the market so to speak.

    As an analogy, lets say that suddenly Microsoft was ordered to stop selling Windows. Would it put them out of business?? No they would go on, trying to sell their other softwares, however their revenue would take a massive hit. Sure they would still have their other softwares to vend, however the sheer volume of users who have used Windows will not suddenly decide to get into the latest MS Office as a result, despite MS's attempts to bump up production and sales of this product to make up for some of the lost income. It already has a defined market, and those who the product does not appeal to will continue to not be appealed to it.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    So you think that if the State of California taxes marijuana, the drug cartels are going to go out of business because of reduced profitability thanks to the taxes?
    Legalization will draw down the supply curve, thereby lowering the commodity price of said drugs; be it cannabis, heroin, etc..., that is the entire point. Lower prices = less drug dealers. The current cost of high grade marijuana, truly high grade, ranges from $400-$1500/oz. This is the definition of windfall black market profits.

    When i go into Amsterdam, or even cannabis dispensaries in Oakland, the quality is high yet prices are still relatively low compared to illicit dealers.

    In order to tax marijuana effectively (it already is taxed in medicann dispensaries) it has to be completely decriminalized, and aloud to be cultivated by firms. Otherwise, how are taxes going to be levied in illegal transactions

    Pay attention now. Legalized cannabis = lower commodity prices.

    Where do I begin addressing such absurd notions?
    Just end it there

    By the way, do you also believe that when corporations and businesses are taxed they do not pass those costs onto their consumers/customers?

    Please try to stay with me. Marijuana's black market induced pricing mechanism provides potential drug dealers the incentive to enter the market. Prices are high because risks associated, combined with a lack of enabled open competition among suppliers.

    Any drug dealer will tell you that they do not wish any drugs to become legalized. How you fail to understand this concept is beyond me.

    If the price of cannabis goes from $20/g to $10/g via legalization, and a 25% tax is levied, that equates to......... If a 100% tax was implemented, and prices were driven back to black market levels, market equilibrium will be shifted back as well. Therefore the entire point of the tax would be negated as illicit drug dealers would be motivated to sell at $19/g, thereby bringing us back to square one.

    You are implementing taxation as a demand issue. It is not
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Even if there is no change in the profitability of the drug business (a remote possibility) as a society the US will benefit from not interning people who pose no danger to society or themselves (at least not any significant danger to themselves). We'll benefit because our fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters wont be sent to jail needlessly and because the government wont be paying for it.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Your points are valid but do not expect honesty from the legalize drug crowd; that would require removing their willing suspension of disbelief and denial.

    What I would like to expect is a lack of stereotyping and reciprocal honesty from all.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    No, but they will have a serious reduction in profit, the only way to put them out of business completely is to legalize and control all drugs, but I am not going to try to shove that horse pill down your mouth.

    Marijuana is far and away their largest cash cow, and a substantial chunk of their profits.
    Who is going to grow all this marijuana that the Government makes legal and tax?


    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Will they start focusing more on other drugs like cocaine, and heroine to make up the difference?? yes. However the demand is and will continue to be a small subset of the population. I would in fact argue that it would drop since the ease or temptation to try a little bit of coke because your buddy who you get pot from happens to have it. The wide open pipeline to the black market vending these harder substances will be barricaded. Scores of casual relations nurtured solely for attaining marijuana that so happen to also know where to get other substances would dry up. Harder drugs get tried very often because they just so happen to be at the shelves at the market so to speak.
    The issue isn’t whether they will focus on “other” drugs like cocaine and heroine, the issue is they will continue to grow Marijuana which will be LEGAL and continue attempting to get people HOOKED on cocaine and heroine which are far more profitable and easy to move than tons of Cannabis.

    There is a LOT of evidence that marijuana merely leads to much stronger drug use. After a while, you just can’t get the thrill from smoking dope and turn to stronger alternatives.

    The notion that the drug trade will somehow go away and enforcement problems will be minimized by legalization are absurd arguments that are not supported by the facts. The notion that many people smoke dope because it helps them to relax or concentrate is equally specious; it is to get a thrill. And once that thrill is worn out, they usually turn to stronger drugs for their “thrills.”


    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    As an analogy, lets say that suddenly Microsoft was ordered to stop selling Windows. Would it put them out of business?? No they would go on, trying to sell their other softwares, however their revenue would take a massive hit. Sure they would still have their other softwares to vend, however the sheer volume of users who have used Windows will not suddenly decide to get into the latest MS Office as a result, despite MS's attempts to bump up production and sales of this product to make up for some of the lost income. It already has a defined market, and those who the product does not appeal to will continue to not be appealed to it.
    Yes, quite the argument comparing computer software to mind altering drugs; you cannot possibly be serious can you?



    Carry on; remember what the debate is about; Marijuana will rescue California's economy. It won't because we heard the same specious arguments about the lottery solving our school budget problems, how cigarette taxes would solve our budget problems etc etc ect; yet we always seem to have a budget problem.

    If you honestly believe this argument, there is a bridge in Arizona I would like to sell you.

    Now why do you suppose that is? Could it be that our Government officials spend money like addicts do drugs?

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    What I would like to expect is a lack of stereotyping and reciprocal honesty from all.
    What irony; a Liberal wanting honesty.

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    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    Plenty of people both brew their own beer and grow their own tobacco. Home brewing is particularly a popular hobby.
    Are you seriously suggesting that people in this country, other than a few hobbyists, brew or distill their own beer and liquor on a regular basis? Or cultivate tobacco to make their own cigarettes?

    And are you denying that 'growing your own' is actually quite popular among regular weed smokers? And probably would be even if legalized?



    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    Stoned kids are impossible to detect? Lets reinterpret this statement: Stoned kids aren't doing anything worth detecting. If someone is sitting quietly and unobtrusively but their stoned, why do you care?
    Now your making a case that it's okay for kids to be stoned in school? We shouldn't care?

    Last edited by Grateful Heart; 03-16-09 at 04:03 PM.

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