Page 17 of 61 FirstFirst ... 7151617181927 ... LastLast
Results 161 to 170 of 609

Thread: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

  1. #161
    don't panic
    marduc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 04:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,301

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And yet with government enforcement, people would be far more concerned about bringing alcohol home from a speakeasy than from a liquor store. Kids get a lot of their alcohol from home. Less availability.
    For the most part kids do not get their alcohol from home. The likelihood of getting caught, and the consequences are too high. An occasional undetectable nip from the liquor cabinet?? I can't deny that would happen But implying they just casually walk to the fridge and grab a six pack to take with them or grab a bottle of rum from the liquor cabinet when they go out to share amongst friends? Sneaking mom and pop's alcohol is unsustainable, and if they are to actually be using it with any frequency other than a sample here and there it would have to come from outside sources.

    Are there parents who actually let the kids imbibe from the home stash? yes, but this is an extreme minority, and they likely are piss poor parents to begin with and probably should not be rearing a child.





    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy
    And pass 8 bars and 12 liquor stores on the way. Or go to your friend's house where the liquor cabinet is unlocked...or your own house. You don't have to call anyone or go anywhere.
    It was 3 am when I wrote that, I could have only got alcohol from any of the supposed bars and or liquor stores if I robbed them, if I was underage the time is moot without a great deal of conniving and fabrication in order to attain it. As far as marijuana in correlation to passing liquor stores or going to a friends house to raid the liquor cabinet, why bother when it comes to you at school, or work.


    So, if this is the case, then your argument doesn't seem pertinent. Others have said, in this thread, that the feeling of alcohol is far worse, in many ways, than the feeling of marijuana. You are contradicting yourself.
    How am I contradicting myself over what others have said??

    Alcohol in excess is going to feel far worse, that does not change the fact that a huge amount of its appeal is as a social lubricant, and its decrease in inhibitions, it is a drug that facilitates people to let loose, as such is highly appealing to people. Marijuana is more of a reclusive drug, a more tranquil relaxed demeanor, and not a social lubricator that will appeal to the desire to "let loose". Marijuana and Alcohol are apples and oranges on their effects, and their appeal to individuals, and will continue to be apples and oranges in their usage patterns. Look at the Dutch, Alcohol is still by far the drug of choice, despite the acceptance of marijuana.



    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy
    Sorry, the numbers I posted refute those that you did. And mine were from an American study, yours were from an European study of Americans. Mine would get the nod from a validity standpoint.
    My figures were post without seeing the data you supplied, their intent was not to refute your numbers or your data, it was to show that despite its availability, and lax stance on marijuana in Holland, marijuana consumption was still significantly lower than alcohol consumption, as well as significantly lower than corresponding US marijuana consumption.

    But if you disqualify a European study of Americans, I will go ahead and compare the portion of the European study of Europeans against your American study of Americans. I assume it is acceptable for Europeans to study themselves? I hope so it will be damn hard to dig up a US study of Dutch usage trends.

    The European study reports 28% of Dutch teens as having smoked Marijuana, your report cites 46% of U.S 12th graders as having smoked marijuana. So Dutch teen marijuana usage is ~40% LOWER than U.S SENIOR usage (a subset of teen usage that is by far the highest percentage contributor to the whole) despite its availability, and lax social barriers towards it.

    Unfortunately I have to make an assumption on the alcohol data, it appears that "alcohol usage in the past month" is inferred in the European study:

    Thirty-seven percent of European teens had smoked cigarettes in the past month as compared with only 26% of Americans. Sixty-one percent of European teens had consumed alcohol [in the past month]
    So if we accept what is likely inferred, Europe study, 61% used Alcohol in the past month, U.S. study, 48.6% of seniors with decreasing rates for younger teens used in the past month.

    Even if we disregard the inferred "within the past month" and use your senior "tried at least once" rate of 78% and take the Dutch finding of 61% to imply the same we find that Dutch are 218% more likely to use alcohol than marijuana, while Americans are 170% more likely.

    So despite their lax social stance to marijuana (to the point of making it trite and boring), and the tolerance and availability, Dutch teens are significantly less likely to use marijuana than US teens, and alcohol is by far still the drug of choice.

    Again though apples to oranges, but unfortunately a large portion of the argument here has been based on comparing alcohol usage to marijuana usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy
    78% alcohol vs. 46% marijuana. I win.
    No you don't the burden is still upon you to illustrate that this is a result of drug policy, attitudes and availability as opposed to just over all trends in human drug preferences. The data we both supplied suggests the latter.

    Some more info to mull over:

    first off directly relates to the thesis of "would Alcohol consumption in teens decrease if it were made illegal:

    Wickersham Commission Report on Alcohol Prohibition (1931)
    Among the significant findings of this report were:

    * Alcohol use declined during the first two or three years of Prohibition (a trend that had begun before Prohibition started) but rose every year thereafter. There was, in particular, an increase in the use of distilled liquors. There was also evidence of increased alcohol use and addiction among minors.
    Major Studies of Drugs and Drug Policy - Titles and Summaries

    The effects on teen usage rates of easing of marijuana controls:

    British Crime Survey statistics showed that the proportion of 16- to 24-year-olds using cannabis slumped from 28% a decade ago to 21% now, with its declining popularity accelerating after the decision to downgrade the drug to class C was announced in January 2004.
    Cannabis use down since legal change | Society | The Guardian

    "Overall, the preponderance of the evidence which we have gathered and examined points to the conclusion that decriminalization has had virtually no effect either on the marijuana use or on related attitudes and beliefs about marijuana use among American young people. The data show no evidence of any increase, relative to the control states, in the proportion of the age group who ever tried marijuana. In fact, both groups of experimental states showed a small, cumulative net decline in annual prevalence after decriminalization."
    - L. Johnson et al. 1981. Marijuana Decriminalization: The Impact on Youth 1975-1980. Monitoring the Future, Occasional Paper Series, paper 13, Institute for Social Research, University of Michigan: Ann Arbor.
    "Levels of use tended to be higher in the decriminalization states both before and after the changes in law. [S]tates which moderated penalties after 1974 (essentially a group of decriminalization states) did indeed experience an increase in rates of marijuana use, among both adolescents (age 12-17) and adults (18 or older). However, the increase in marijuana use was even greater in other states and the largest proportionate increase occurred in those states with the most severe penalties."
    - W. Saveland and D. Bray. 1980. American Trends in Cannabis Use Among States with Different Changing Legal Regimes. Bureau of Tobacco Control and Biometrics, Health and Welfare: Ottawa, as cited by E. Single in The Impact of Marijuana Decriminalization: an Update.
    "There is no evidence to date that the CEN [decriminalization] system ... Has increased levels of regular cannabis use, or rates of experimentation among young adults. These results are broadly in accord with our earlier analysis of trends in cannabis use in Australia. ...They are also consistent with the results of similar analyses in the United States and the Netherlands."
    - N. Donnelly et al. 1999. Effects of the Cannabis Expiation Notice Scheme on Levels and Patterns of Cannabis Use in South Australia: Evidence from the National Drug Strategy Household Surveys 1985-1995 (Report commissioned for the National Drug Strategy Committee). Australian Government Publishing Service: Canberra, Australia.
    "It appears clear that there is no firm basis for concluding that the introduction of the Cannabis Expiation Notice System in South Australia in 1987 has had any detrimental effect in terms of leading to increased levels of cannabis use in the Southern Australian community. ... In the context of a society which is increasingly well informed about the risks associated with drug use in general, a move toward more lenient laws for small scale cannabis offenses, such as the CEN [decriminalization] system, will not lead to increased cannabis use."
    - Drug and Alcohol Services Council of South Australia, Monitoring, Evaluation and Research Unit. 1991. The Effects of Cannabis Legalization in South Australia on Levels of Cannabis Use. DASC Press: Parkside, Australia.

    What limited data we have suggests that in fact it will not increase usage amongst teens, unfortunately there have not been many studies or precedents to base any definitive conclusions upon. This is but one small part of a much broader picture as others have elaborated upon while we have had our lasers focused on one little portion of the whole.
    Last edited by marduc; 03-15-09 at 06:06 PM.

  2. #162
    don't panic
    marduc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 04:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,301

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that these marijuana debates often get very heated, both on message boards and in society at large, for a very simple reason. A reason that has little to do with logic or fact or figures or reason. And to illustrate my point, I'm going to take myself back to high school and college. 'Stoners' tended to segregate themselves. And by 'stoner' I'm referring to regular pot-smokers, not the casual user who takes a hit at a party every once in a while. Stoners weren't popular in my high school. They weren't popular in my dorm in college. They tended to go into their rooms, lock their doors, and spend hours and hours giggling, playing their 'stoner' music and doing whatever it is stoners do when they party. They were, in a real sense, outcasts.

    And I can't help but believe that this segregation of stoners or pot-heads or whatever you call them... and this view of them as outcasts or outsiders, fuels the debate much more than we know.

    Some may argue that if pot were to be legalized, this would change. But I'm not sure it would.

    So stop segregating them and labeling them and considering them as outcasts and outsiders while looking down your nose at them.

    I do not think stoners segregate themselves,they get forced into segregation due to being demonized, labeled and stereotyped. Much as your post has just illustrated.

  3. #163
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:38 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,692

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    So stop segregating them and labeling them and considering them as outcasts and outsiders while looking down your nose at them.

    I do not think stoners segregate themselves,they get forced into segregation due to being demonized, labeled and stereotyped. Much as your post has just illustrated.
    Everyone has a different experience. My experience was that "stoners" were the ones that segregated themselves, looking down their noses at others.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #164
    don't panic
    marduc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 04:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,301

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Everyone has a different experience. My experience was that "stoners" were the ones that segregated themselves, looking down their noses at others.
    Depends on what side of that pane of glass you were on. I can attest that in fact we were derided, ridiculed, and ostracized.

  5. #165
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:38 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,692

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Depends on what side of that pane of glass you were on. I can attest that in fact we were derided, ridiculed, and ostracized.
    Yes, it does. I can attest to the fact that those like you, where I came from, did the "holier than thou" thing.

    So, we've established that it is a matter of perception.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #166
    don't panic
    marduc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 04:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,301

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Yes, it does. I can attest to the fact that those like you, where I came from, did the "holier than thou" thing.

    So, we've established that it is a matter of perception.

    That and it is a matter of a snake eating its own tail.

  7. #167
    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Seen
    12-27-09 @ 03:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,010

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Depends on what side of that pane of glass you were on. I can attest that in fact we were derided, ridiculed, and ostracized.
    We can place blame for this on whichever side we'd like. But that really doesn't matter.

    The fact is that drug use in the U.S., as well as most other cultures, is very much a cultural phenomenon. And in the U.S., drinking is socially acceptable. Smoking weed is not.

    Advocates for cannabis can cite all the case studies and research reports demonstrating that marijuana isn't harmful. That doesn't change the fact that MOST parents in this country don't want their kids growing up to be Cheech & Chong!

    So if pot-smokers want to win this battle... they'd better start working on the image thing. Because that's what's doing their cause in.

    Last edited by Grateful Heart; 03-15-09 at 06:35 PM.

  8. #168
    don't panic
    marduc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Last Seen
    10-22-17 @ 04:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    5,301

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    We can place blame for this on whichever side we'd like. But that really doesn't matter.

    The fact is that drug use in the U.S., as well as most other cultures, is very much a cultural phenomenon. And in the U.S., drinking is socially acceptable. Smoking weed is not.

    Advocates for cannabis can cite all the case studies and research reports demonstrating that marijuana isn't harmful. That doesn't change the fact that MOST parents in this country don't want their kids growing up to be Cheech & Chong!

    So if pot-smokers want to win this battle... they'd better start working on the image thing. Because that's what's doing their cause in.

    Nor do they wish their child grow up to be the town drunk either.

    What would it take for you to change your view on the image of pot smokers? I do not think you, nor unfortunately many others as well can erase their preconceived propaganda fueled notions.

    The habitual smokers are a subset of the whole, which dwarfs them, its usage permeates society and crosses stereotypes, Presidents (although 1 did not inhale), Micheal Phelps, celebrity figures, Doctors, Lawyers, Scientists, Engineers, you name it, they run the gambit, but the ones that get the spotlight are the minority who are drastically unproductive, which they most likely would be without pot as well.

  9. #169
    Sage
    First Thought's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    DFW, Texas
    Last Seen
    12-01-10 @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    6,218

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    During prohibition, do know whether underage drinking was as much of a problem as it is now? I understand that we are discussing different eras, but I'd be curious as to know whether this is supposition on your part or whether there is any statistics.

    Also, I believe that during prohibition, the availability of alcohol was pretty level after an initial bottoming out. And this level was far under the level when it is legal. It would be less available to kids because it would be less available at all.
    Well, supply did not seem to be an issue since consumption increased when it became illegal.

    Alcohol Prohibition Was a Failure

    "Although consumption of alcohol fell at the beginning of Prohibition, it subsequently increased. Alcohol became more dangerous to consume; crime increased and became "organized"; the court and prison systems were stretched to the breaking point; and corruption of public officials was rampant. No measurable gains were made in productivity or reduced absenteeism. Prohibition removed a significant source of tax revenue and greatly increased government spending. It led many drinkers to switch to opium, marijuana, patent medicines, cocaine, and other dangerous substances that they would have been unlikely to encounter in the absence of Prohibition."

    Prohibition in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Many social problems have been attributed to the Prohibition era. A profitable, often violent, black market for alcohol flourished. Racketeeringorganized crime lost nearly all of its black market alcohol profits in most states (states still had the right to enforce their own laws concerning alcohol consumption), because of competition with low-priced alcohol sales at legal liquor stores. happened when powerful gangs corrupted law enforcement agencies. Stronger liquor surged in popularity because its potency made it more profitable to smuggle. The cost of enforcing Prohibition was high, and the lack of tax revenues on alcohol (some $500 million annually nationwide) affected government coffers."
    Last edited by First Thought; 03-15-09 at 07:10 PM.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

  10. #170
    Educator Grateful Heart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Last Seen
    12-27-09 @ 03:58 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,010

    Re: Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Nor do they wish their child grow up to be the town drunk either.
    Of course not. But you've got to admit. It's quite normal for Americans to go out to a restaurant and have a glass of wine or beer or two with dinner. It's also normal to go to the holiday party and have a few glasses of spiked punch or champagne... complete with the silly New Years Eve hats. In fact we don't think twice about it. So portraying alcohol drinkers as 'town drunks' just doesn't cut it. While most Americans would not want their child to be the town drunk... most Americans also love their alcohol.

    It is NOT normal or expected to see someone smoking pot. Fairly or unfairly, there's a perception among most Americans that it's odd, or out of the mainstream, or unfamiliar. Public opinion polls support this perception...

    Gallup Poll

    Those numbers don't bode well for pot-smokers. Even gays have better ratings.


Page 17 of 61 FirstFirst ... 7151617181927 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •