Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 15 of 15

Thread: Chinese rights leader's family 'defects to US'

  1. #11
    Educator BulletWounD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Seen
    02-17-11 @ 09:06 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    984

    Re: Chinese rights leader's family 'defects to US'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    That is also how I read the article.



    The American CONSUMER can exert pressure by no longer buying Chinese junk!
    The only way for China to change is to change from below. This silly notion that the CPC is just going to voluntarily relax their vicegrip on power is ludicrous. It's never happened. It's never going to happen. The only thing that will ever ever remove the CPC from power is 1.5 billion angry people.

  2. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Chinese rights leader's family 'defects to US'

    It is unlikely to change from the bottom because most of the current generation in China have been indoctrinated from an early age to think that China is the best, and its government is the greatest thing ever. The older people know better, but they learned a long time ago not to speak out for fear of repercussions. Once they have died out, I think most of the population will have fallen in line by then.

    I've heard in the (foreign) news that there are underground movements here, but they have such little sway with the public. All of the big cities in China cater to the rising commercialist middle class, and the rich; neither of those groups have much to complain about because they are getting what they want in life. If there is going to be any upward pressure, it will be from the countryside, and the scant footage and information that has leaked out from those areas (due to censorship) has indicated there has been a lot of unrest.

    I think it will require serious economic hardship in China in order for people to be discontent enough that their enchantment with modern luxuries in the big cities begins to wane. The other front may be environmental. Pollution is causing a lot of illness, even in places like Beijing and Shanghai; also, water shortages in places like Beijing will become more dire as the years go on.

    Right now the status quo in China is very powerful so frankly the key players who could cause big change don't really care and the masses aren't budging anyway. There is growth, there is wealth (even in this global economic crisis, China's growth is still at 9% which is huge), and most people are concerned with living their daily lives.

  3. #13
    Educator BulletWounD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Seen
    02-17-11 @ 09:06 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    984

    Re: Chinese rights leader's family 'defects to US'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It is unlikely to change from the bottom because most of the current generation in China have been indoctrinated from an early age to think that China is the best, and its government is the greatest thing ever. The older people know better, but they learned a long time ago not to speak out for fear of repercussions. Once they have died out, I think most of the population will have fallen in line by then.
    As I've expounded on in other posts, there are two ways of maintaining order: liberty, justice, and truth or tyranny, injustice, and lies. If you remove one part, the house of cards collapses. What we're seeing in China are two conflicting agendas: economic growth and maintaining power. What is it that makes a Western style country able to perform so well? It's the free exchange of ideas. That's why you're seeing restrictions relaxed on the media. With access to new media that is not state owned, the CPC will no longer be able to maintain the illusion that the system's just fine. People will begin to see things from different perspectives other than that of the state, even if that perspective is just a minority at first. Another key point is that there are so many people working to establish the rule of law in China. Once that happens, the government will no longer be able to dictate by fiat. Finally, as the younger generation grows up with access to the internet, they will be exposed to western ideas. The Great Firewall can reduce this exposure, but the subtleties will always slip through and for those that are interested there will always be a way around it.

    I've heard in the (foreign) news that there are underground movements here, but they have such little sway with the public. All of the big cities in China cater to the rising commercialist middle class, and the rich; neither of those groups have much to complain about because they are getting what they want in life. If there is going to be any upward pressure, it will be from the countryside, and the scant footage and information that has leaked out from those areas (due to censorship) has indicated there has been a lot of unrest.

    I think it will require serious economic hardship in China in order for people to be discontent enough that their enchantment with modern luxuries in the big cities begins to wane. The other front may be environmental. Pollution is causing a lot of illness, even in places like Beijing and Shanghai; also, water shortages in places like Beijing will become more dire as the years go on.

    Right now the status quo in China is very powerful so frankly the key players who could cause big change don't really care and the masses aren't budging anyway. There is growth, there is wealth (even in this global economic crisis, China's growth is still at 9% which is huge), and most people are concerned with living their daily lives.
    China's historically been a poor nation. How will driving them back into poverty change anything? I think that would be counter-productive and would drive them to become more insular.

  4. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Chinese rights leader's family 'defects to US'

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    As I've expounded on in other posts, there are two ways of maintaining order: liberty, justice, and truth or tyranny, injustice, and lies. If you remove one part, the house of cards collapses. What we're seeing in China are two conflicting agendas: economic growth and maintaining power. What is it that makes a Western style country able to perform so well? It's the free exchange of ideas. That's why you're seeing restrictions relaxed on the media. With access to new media that is not state owned, the CPC will no longer be able to maintain the illusion that the system's just fine.
    I value Western freedoms, but I don't think they are perfect and I don't believe that we are as informed as we are indoctrinated to believe we are. More often than not, people are too busy chanting about how free we are to see that we are being misled or that the media is only giving us half the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Another key point is that there are so many people working to establish the rule of law in China. Once that happens, the government will no longer be able to dictate by fiat.
    I don't understand this point. Who is working to established the rule of law, exactly? Right now only the CCP does that.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Finally, as the younger generation grows up with access to the internet, they will be exposed to western ideas. The Great Firewall can reduce this exposure, but the subtleties will always slip through and for those that are interested there will always be a way around it.
    The firewall is mostly useless, but that's not the problem. First, the school system gets to Chinese children before the internet ever does. They are taught from day one to salut the Communist Party, and they are only given details about the good things the Communists do.

    Second, the vast majority of Chinese who have access to the internet know no other language but Chinese, and so the vast array of content which might open their eyes is inaccessible. The only medium that can reach them is one that MUST be in Chinese, and this is what the government looks out for. As soon as something is spotted, it is shut down. There are plenty of English sites that are pro-democracy for China, but barely anyone can read them, so what's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    China's historically been a poor nation. How will driving them back into poverty change anything? I think that would be counter-productive and would drive them to become more insular.
    China has not been historically poor. Until the 1600's it was the richest and most advanced nation on earth, even ahead of Europe with its innovations. And it wasn't until the past 100 years that China experienced widespread poverty and collapse, due to the Western and Japanese invasions, and then letter the domestic mismanagement of the early CCP.

    You also have to realize that the lack of democracy is allowing development to proceed at an unprecedented pace. There is no bureaucracy, no whining, no people's rights... if they want to bulldoze a neighbourhood and build a highway, they do it. No questions asked. If they want to build 2,000 buildings in one year, the permits just appear. There are so many people in the country that democratic bureaucracy would slow growth right now, and I do believe that once China is more developed its democratic movements will have a better chance.

    Right now most people in China accept the CCP for the simple fact that they are providing what is needed. The KMT never did that, although in fairness there were the Japanese, the CCP running amock, and WWII which made smooth government difficult. The foreign powers never did that for China when they invaded. The CCP is the first government since the fall of the Qing to actually get stuff done and provide prosperity.

    Like I said... if the prosperity begins to wane or the environment gets too timultuous, people will begin to turn coat.
    Last edited by Orion; 03-13-09 at 11:01 AM.

  5. #15
    Educator BulletWounD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last Seen
    02-17-11 @ 09:06 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    984

    Re: Chinese rights leader's family 'defects to US'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I value Western freedoms, but I don't think they are perfect and I don't believe that we are as informed as we are indoctrinated to believe we are. More often than not, people are too busy chanting about how free we are to see that we are being misled or that the media is only giving us half the story.
    Yes, it's our duty as free people to separate fact from fiction. The biggest problem with Western media is sensationalistic "yellow journalism." The more informed among us help the less informed insofar as they are willing to listen.

    I don't understand this point. Who is working to established the rule of law, exactly? Right now only the CCP does that.
    Lawyers, of course. Who else?

    The firewall is mostly useless, but that's not the problem. First, the school system gets to Chinese children before the internet ever does. They are taught from day one to salut the Communist Party, and they are only given details about the good things the Communists do.
    I like to think that people are naturally rebellious as they grow up and are inclined to explore areas which are "forbidden" to them. I know I was. I went to a public school and hated the leftist indoctrination I received.

    Second, the vast majority of Chinese who have access to the internet know no other language but Chinese, and so the vast array of content which might open their eyes is inaccessible. The only medium that can reach them is one that MUST be in Chinese, and this is what the government looks out for. As soon as something is spotted, it is shut down. There are plenty of English sites that are pro-democracy for China, but barely anyone can read them, so what's the point?
    This is the biggest problem. I've attempted to join Chinese forums and start discussing my ideas with them but it's pretty hard to do that when you're confronted with a giant wall of moonspeak. I've been learning Chinese (simplified mandarin) and I encourage others to do the same.

    China has not been historically poor. Until the 1600's it was the richest and most advanced nation on earth, even ahead of Europe with its innovations. And it wasn't until the past 100 years that China experienced widespread poverty and collapse, due to the Western and Japanese invasions, and then letter the domestic mismanagement of the early CCP.
    I must be honest. I don't know that much about Chinese history. The point I'm trying to make is that the CCP mismanaged the country for decades and it's only in the wake of privatization that China has started to see economic growth. Economic control and social control intricately weaved together. As people become less dependent on the government, the government will naturally have less power over them.

    You also have to realize that the lack of democracy is allowing development to proceed at an unprecedented pace. There is no bureaucracy, no whining, no people's rights... if they want to bulldoze a neighbourhood and build a highway, they do it. No questions asked. If they want to build 2,000 buildings in one year, the permits just appear. There are so many people in the country that democratic bureaucracy would slow growth right now, and I do believe that once China is more developed its democratic movements will have a better chance.
    Yeah, good point but as people become aware of these injustices and begin to sympathize with the victims of the government as human beings, the government will be less able to do this.

    Right now most people in China accept the CCP for the simple fact that they are providing what is needed. The KMT never did that, although in fairness there were the Japanese, the CCP running amock, and WWII which made smooth government difficult. The foreign powers never did that for China when they invaded. The CCP is the first government since the fall of the Qing to actually get stuff done and provide prosperity.

    Like I said... if the prosperity begins to wane or the environment gets too timultuous, people will begin to turn coat.
    I see your point of view, but I'd like to think that there are better ways of achieving the goal of a free and just China then driving them into poverty through economic sanctions.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •