• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Alaska Gov. Palin's Daughter, Fiance Break Up

new coup for you said:
You guys can cling to relativism all you want but the reality is that children when you're young is an unnecessary burden which will stunt your personal and career development. Of course many people triumph through this and raise mathletes that go to space camp, but my position is more likely then yours.
Click to expand...

So, my father running his own company by 25 is a stunted career development for him? WTF would he have done if he didn't have three kids? Own his own Planet?

And guess what?

Not only was he young when he got married, he's only went to school until he was 12?!?!?!?

And guess what else? He taught himself how to be a "mathlete". The guy is better at math than most college grads!

Face it, everyone is different.
 
americanwoman said:
What a crock! All the stay at home mothers I know are nothing like that. They do things with their children, like take them to museums and parks, and then go home to do housework and cook. You think it's so easy, I'd like to see you be a stay at home parent for a week.

And there is something they do that us parents who have to work can't do- spend even more quality time with their children.
Click to expand...

Wait a second. I have stayed at home with our kids for a week before. My wife and I have to use vacation time when school is for Christmas and Spring break and stay home with the kids.

Its easy, and yes, during that time I take to do things, its still easy. Its much easier than working. If someone thinks kids are a burden then they should not have them.

Life is all about balance. When I get out of work, we go to park, go on bike rides, and so on. As a family we make a day trip somewhere nearly every weekend.

If one of us stayed home, our kids would not be able to do the things they do now because we would not be able to afford it. They would not have been able to go to all the places they have been to. They would not have had the benefit of Montessori Schools before kindergarten. Hell we would not have been able to even adopt our daughter because we would not have been able to afford it.

My point is that there is nothing wrong with most parents working, and I would argue that in this day and age, so long as the parents do strive for that balance between work and family, in many cases its ideal.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Wait a second. I have stayed at home with our kids for a week before. My wife and I have to use vacation time when school is for Christmas and Spring break and stay home with the kids.

Its easy, and yes, during that time I take to do things, its still easy. Its much easier than working. If someone thinks kids are a burden then they should not have them.

Life is all about balance. When I get out of work, we go to park, go on bike rides, and so on. As a family we make a day trip somewhere nearly every weekend.

If one of us stayed home, our kids would not be able to do the things they do now because we would not be able to afford it. They would not have been able to go to all the places they have been to. They would not have had the benefit of Montessori Schools before kindergarten. Hell we would not have been able to even adopt our daughter because we would not have been able to afford it.

My point is that there is nothing wrong with most parents working, and I would argue that in this day and age, so long as the parents do strive for that balance between work and family, in many cases its ideal.
Click to expand...

ok this is much better. Your other post made it seem as though you think stay at home parents do nothing but sit on their bums and watch soaps all day long. I can agree with this here very much.
 
Tucker Case said:
So, my father running his own company by 25 is a stunted career development for him? WTF would he have done if he didn't have three kids? Own his own Planet?

And guess what?

Not only was he young when he got married, he's only went to school until he was 12?!?!?!?

And guess what else? He taught himself how to be a "mathlete". The guy is better at math than most college grads!

Face it, everyone is different.
Click to expand...

And that's a real achievement, however it's notable as an achievement due to its unlikelihood.

You're personalizing the class debate.
 
americanwoman said:
ok this is much better. Your other post made it seem as though you think stay at home parents do nothing but sit on their bums and watch soaps all day long. I can agree with this here very much.
Click to expand...

No, I dont think all do, but certainly some do. I know from a lot of our kids friends that some with stay at home parents never get out and do anything other than a trip to the park.

All I am saying is that this notion that having a stay at home mother is ideal is not really the case in today's world.
 
It is about balance and different families have different needs, means, and values. To call one choice lazy and another selfish is just retarded in absence of any facts. I know all kinds of families. I know families where the moms and dad are on rotating schedules with one working at night while the other works days. I know families where one spouse works part time to be home when the kids are home from school. I know families where mom doesn't work and doesn't do much else. I know families where mom doesn't work but she's heavily involved in school, sports, and the community. I know families where mom works a little on the side. I know families where mom goes back to work when the kids are in high school. And I even know one, just one but still one, where dad stays home and mom works. I also know families where mom and dad both work so much they only see the kids for about 10 minutes for bedtime, daily.

Sitting in judgment of the wide variety of choices is just retarded. Couples never have the exact same situation, the exact same resources, and so any exact comparison of the merits of their choice in contrast with other choices is futile. If the family is healthy and the kids are healthy and everyone is happy and it's working for you then you're doing great. If a situation isn't working then change it.

But there is little to be gained by peering over the neighbors fence and tossing out adjectives like lazy while you smugly pat yourself on the back.
 
Last edited:
new coup for you said:
You guys can cling to relativism all you want but the reality is that children when you're young is an unnecessary burden which will stunt your personal and career development. Of course many people triumph through this and raise mathletes that go to space camp, but my position is more likely then yours.
Click to expand...

Increased likelihood of a negative outcome doesn't mean that something shouldn't happen. If gay guys are more likely to get divorced, does that mean that no gay guys should get married?
 
RightinNYC said:
Increased likelihood of a negative outcome doesn't mean that something shouldn't happen. If gay guys are more likely to get divorced, does that mean that no gay guys should get married?
Click to expand...

that's a specious comparison and you know it. divorce, while unpleasant, doesn't fundamentally shape the rest of your life like your early 20s. Where you go to school, how long you go to school and your formative career years have a dramatic impact on your future lifestyle.

when you're in your early 20s your focus should be on personal success.

people who go through more education also have a much lower divorce rate.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Many times a lot. For one, most of the time the husband does not make enough. Unless he makes 90k up, more than likely its not enough to raise a family, meet their needs, and buy a home on that alone.

Secondly, this a different time now than it was 50 years ago or more. Back then, many stay at home mothers also had farms to deal with and several kids. It truly was a full time job to stay at home, take care of the land and kids while your husband was at work.

Today, most people have 2 kids. Keeping 2 or 3 kids all day does not constitute a job. I know, I know.... But what about all the housework, laundry, feeding them, working with them on their homework, and so on. Yeah, well, working parents manage to do all that too - AND work a 40 hour a week job or more.

Most of the kids I know with stay at home mothers are just plain rotten kids. The reason why is their mother just ends up appeasing the kids so she can do all the things she wants to do during the day. I mean come on, why do you think all those soaps, and shows like Doctor Phil, and The View are on TV all day long? Its because these stay at home Moms who are quick to tell you that being a stay at home mom with 2 kids is a full time job, are actually spending much of the day sitting on their ass watching those shows. Like I say, there is nothing they do that my wife doesn't do, she just does it on top of working a full time job.

Moreover, if you don't work, on top of fostering laziness, and many times rotten kids, it also many times leads to a household that does not bring in enough money which hurts the kids future because the family is not able to provide for the kind of enrichment and future education two income families can provide.

Anyway, I think in many cases its a big mistake for both parents not to work. Especially once the kids start school. This is a different world than it used to be. Stay at home moms are not out taking care of livestock on top of raising kids while the father is at work.
Click to expand...

Since I am a temporary stay at home dad, until I start college this summer, I sympathize with stay at home moms across the country, and can basically state from experience(which you probably lack) that your post is full of it. For one, moms 50 years ago didn't "tend to the land" on the farm. Thats what the dad and the kids that were old enough did(while the kids weren't in school). I've known generational farmers, and I've never met one where the woman ran the farm and raised the kids.

I cannot make any defense for the absurd crap that is on daytime TV though.
 
new coup for you said:
that's a specious comparison and you know it. divorce, while unpleasant, doesn't fundamentally shape the rest of your life like your early 20s. Where you go to school, how long you go to school and your formative career years have a dramatic impact on your future lifestyle.

when you're in your early 20s your focus should be on personal success.

people who go through more education also have a much lower divorce rate.
Click to expand...

Black guys are significantly less likely to be involved in raising their children.

Ergo, no black guy should ever impregnate anyone.

It's for the children, really.
 
RightinNYC said:
Black guys are significantly less likely to be involved in raising their children.

Ergo, no black guy should ever impregnate anyone.

It's for the children, really.
Click to expand...

Again, specious, and you know it.

I'm not advocating a ban on young marriages, I'm merely pointing out, that if you want to give yourself and your children the absolute best chance for success you need to not get pregnant and finish your degree. And then both partners should get a job.
 
new coup for you said:
Again, specious, and you know it.

I'm not advocating a ban on young marriages, I'm merely pointing out, that if you want to give yourself and your children the absolute best chance for success you need to not get pregnant and finish your degree. And then both partners should get a job.
Click to expand...

So now people without college degrees shouldn't have kids either?

Jeez. So the millions of Americans who are raised by construction workers and other blue-collar types are screwed?
 
new coup for you said:
Again, specious, and you know it.

I'm not advocating a ban on young marriages, I'm merely pointing out, that if you want to give yourself and your children the absolute best chance for success you need to not get pregnant and finish your degree. And then both partners should get a job.
Click to expand...

They better pick a good field too because those IVF treatments get quite costly and adoption too takes lots of dough. :mrgreen:
 
new coup for you said:
Again, specious, and you know it.

I'm not advocating a ban on young marriages, I'm merely pointing out, that if you want to give yourself and your children the absolute best chance for success you need to not get pregnant and finish your degree. And then both partners should get a job.
Click to expand...

The fact that it would be better for most people in most situations does not mean it would be better for all people in all situations. There are plenty of people for whom getting a college education would do absolutely nothing to improve their situation.
 
There's nothing wrong with not having a degree, however it's something that there's no reason to not strive to attain. America's college education rates are appalling, we're going to be a third world country in a few decades if we keep going in the direction we've been going in.

The era of a middle class lifestyle being readily attainable without college has basically ended.

There are a few industries left in this country that focus on vocational training but they've been dwindling ever since WWII.

Would I like industry to return to this country? Would I like sustainable blue collar jobs that provide a decent standard of living to be accessible for everyone? Of course! Everyday I go to work I walk through the burnt out remains of American industry and see the poor few that haven't been able to make the transition. I know the pain of deindustrialization intimately- and that's exactly why I think it's so critical that our young people be pushed to get the best education they can get. Because their chance today of becoming a welder or a die cutter are smaller then they've ever been- particularly if they live in the inner city.
 
new coup for you said:
There's nothing wrong with not having a degree, however it's something that there's no reason to not strive to attain. America's college education rates are appalling, we're going to be a third world country in a few decades if we keep going in the direction we've been going in.
.
Click to expand...

I just saw the movie 'Idiocrasy' for the first time the other day. This post reminds me of the movie. It could happen. :2razz:
 
new coup for you said:
I'm not advocating a ban on young marriages,
Click to expand...

Right, you'd be advocating that people having a kid with a black guy don't really care about the well being of their kids, are being irresponsible for having a kid, and should always have an abortion anytime they're pregnant.

But a ban?! Heavens no, that'd just be over the top.
 
RightinNYC said:
The fact that it would be better for most people in most situations does not mean it would be better for all people in all situations. There are plenty of people for whom getting a college education would do absolutely nothing to improve their situation.
Click to expand...

Ok and we're all a special and unique snow flakes- which is why I'm not advocating that we institute a Federal Bureau of Making You Wait to Start a Family- I am, however, requiring that people actually admit that it would be better the majority of the time.
 
new coup for you said:
There's nothing wrong with not having a degree, however it's something that there's no reason to not strive to attain. America's college education rates are appalling, we're going to be a third world country in a few decades if we keep going in the direction we've been going in.

The era of a middle class lifestyle being readily attainable without college has basically ended.

There are a few industries left in this country that focus on vocational training but they've been dwindling ever since WWII.

Would I like industry to return to this country? Would I like sustainable blue collar jobs that provide a decent standard of living to be accessible for everyone? Of course!
Click to expand...

Well if we become a third world country, then those jobs might come back. :2razz:
 
new coup for you said:
There's nothing wrong with not having a degree, however it's something that there's no reason to not strive to attain. America's college education rates are appalling, we're going to be a third world country in a few decades if we keep going in the direction we've been going in.

The era of a middle class lifestyle being readily attainable without college has basically ended.

There are a few industries left in this country that focus on vocational training but they've been dwindling ever since WWII.

Would I like industry to return to this country? Would I like sustainable blue collar jobs that provide a decent standard of living to be accessible for everyone? Of course! Everyday I go to work I walk through the burnt out remains of American industry and see the poor few that haven't been able to make the transition. I know the pain of deindustrialization intimately- and that's exactly why I think it's so critical that our young people be pushed to get the best education they can get. Because their chance today of becoming a welder or a die cutter are smaller then they've ever been- particularly if they live in the inner city.
Click to expand...

I agree wtih your premise but what I'm saying is in most cases women don't have the luxury of waiting till their 30 or they don't feel comfortable doing so because they know biologically speaking they peak at 24 for baby making. Women also have trouble staying the course when it comes to the whole college and career establishing road for the very same reason. IVF treatments while highly successful and commonly used today are not inexpensive. They are very costly even for most dual working couples. The further past 30 you are the less chance of success you have with each IVF treatment. So yeah, you hear about some hollywood actress getting IVF and successfully having her first baby at 40 but since it might have taken 12 IVF treatments to get her there this isn't possible for everyone. Woman have a ticking clock that men simply don't have. If women wait to finish school, establish their career, etc they may wait too long and never be a mother.

Men on the other hand can wait till their mid 30's and then go find a nice 20 something year old to have kids with.

Life's a bitch.
 
Zyphlin said:
Right, you'd be advocating that people having a kid with a black guy don't really care about the well being of their kids, are being irresponsible for having a kid, and should always have an abortion anytime they're pregnant.

But a ban?! Heavens no, that'd just be over the top.
Click to expand...

You're conflating two unrelated phenomenon and I reject your analogy.
 
new coup for you said:
Ok and we're all a special and unique snow flakes- which is why I'm not advocating that we institute a Federal Bureau of Making You Wait to Start a Family- I am, however, requiring that people actually admit that it would be better the majority of the time.
Click to expand...

I'll agree that men should wait. Finish school, establish career.

As for women, god bless 'em, any which way they figure it out is fine by me because we got the short end of the stick. If every single women out there decided to finish college and spend a few years establishing her career before having her first kid we'd go extinct or damn near close to it as most couples even with degrees wouldn't be able to pay for all the fertility treatment that would be needed to correct the mess.
 
WI Crippler said:
Since I am a temporary stay at home dad, until I start college this summer, I sympathize with stay at home moms across the country, and can basically state from experience(which you probably lack) that your post is full of it. For one, moms 50 years ago didn't "tend to the land" on the farm. Thats what the dad and the kids that were old enough did(while the kids weren't in school). I've known generational farmers, and I've never met one where the woman ran the farm and raised the kids.

I cannot make any defense for the absurd crap that is on daytime TV though.
Click to expand...

I am not full of it, I have done it. I have spent time at home with my kids for weeks at a time and its a hell of a lot easier than working full time and raising kids.

I am not talking about people that had a big farm back in the day. I am talking about people that lived out in the country and had a few acres to tend to. Back when you washed clothes by hand and things like that, it almost required someone to stay at home.

Its one thing if a mom has 5 or more kids at home to take care of. Thats work. Its another to take care of 1 to 3 kids and call it a full time job.

If you look at the site linked to my profile, you will see that my wife and I have plenty of experience as parents.
 
Last edited:
chevydriver1123 said:
Why is this news?
Click to expand...

Well, she was raised by the queen of family values, or so republicans wanted us to think a few months ago....Bristol needs practice those values. Why would Sarah want to hold an entire nation to her way of thinking, but not her how daughter? I don't think having a child is a bad thing, but I think a family not practicing what they preach is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom