Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 61

Thread: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

  1. #31
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Not a comparable analogy. Sex offenders go to prison by default if convicted. I hope we can agree that is a reasonable practice and they deserve to go to prison.
    You're missing a key point - the fact that the punishment already exists doesn't serve to eliminate its coercive effect. This is even more egregious where the potential punishment is significantly increased, as it is in this situation. If you get convicted of theft and the punishment is 3 months in prison, it's not that big of a deal. If I offer to let you out of jail so long as we cut off your right hand, you're probably not going to accept. However, if the punishment is 40 years in prison, you're probably going to agree to have your hand removed in exchange for freedom. Does that mean that your decision is "voluntary"? Of course not. I'm using the power of the state to increase the potential penalty for refusing to agree to my preferred outcome in order to coerce you to do what I desire.

    Your analogy fails because death is not the same as imprisonment, and more importantly robbing someone is illegal and unethical, where as putting sex offender in prison is not. The only difference between our system and the Czech republic is that offenders have the option to get castrated if they decide its better than prison. In our system, they simply go straight to prison. If we use your analogy, the guy puts a gun to my head and shoots me without even asking for my money.
    No, in my analogy, the guy is putting a gun to your head and letting you decide "your money or your life." If you turn over your wallet, he doesn't shoot you.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  2. #32
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It's not really "voluntary" if you tell the prisoner that he can either be castrated and go free or refuse castration and spend the rest of his life in jail. It's incredibly coercive.
    But if he picks castration instead of incarceration, it's probably because he thinks that THAT punishment is less cruel and unusual than the alternative. And depending on the circumstances, I'd be inclined to agree with him. We aren't talking about a guillotine-type procedure to chop off his balls while he's fully conscious.

    You could look at the issue another way to make the same argument about incarceration...Offer the convict "voluntary incarceration" as an alternative to losing his balls. Would incarceration then be cruel and unusual?

    Of course the punishment is coercive, as it should be...the offender was convicted of a crime, after all. But coercion doesn't imply that the convict is unable to make a legitimate choice between two distinct options.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    I bet that telling someone who's had his balls removed that he can get testosterone injections isn't very comforting.
    I bet that telling someone who's facing 25 years of hard labor and gang rapes in prison that he can sue his guards for abuse isn't very comforting either. But what else can you do.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-12-09 at 07:35 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  3. #33
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Goldsboro,PA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 04:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    5,596
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    This will only turn those offenders into more violent offenders. You take a guys manhood in an attempt to kill his drive and "disarm" him you might as well put a gun in his hand and tell him he has nothing to live for. Segregation of sexual offenders and rehabilitation are the only ways in which to protect society from them. Well you could execute them, but I'm not a death penalty supporter.
    Instead, keep them in prison for life at $20,000 annually...
    It makes a lot more sense to study the Czech method and see how this works over the long run..
    "Rehabilitation" has been shown NOT to work..

  4. #34
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But if he picks castration instead of incarceration, it's probably because he thinks that THAT punishment is less cruel and unusual than the alternative. And depending on the circumstances, I'd be inclined to agree with him. We aren't talking about a guillotine-type procedure to chop off his balls while he's fully conscious.

    You could look at the issue another way to make the same argument about incarceration...Offer the convict "voluntary incarceration" as an alternative to losing his balls. Would incarceration then be cruel and unusual?

    Of course the punishment is coercive, as it should be...the offender was convicted of a crime, after all. But coercion doesn't imply that the convict is unable to make a legitimate choice between two distinct options.
    1) Regardless of whether there is a choice, it's not a free choice. When the government acts in a way that is overly coercive, it can operate in such a way as to violate constitutional rights, even where there is still some semblance of a "choice."

    2) Notwithstanding everything else, it's unconstitutional.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #35
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    1) Regardless of whether there is a choice, it's not a free choice.
    Courts often allow early parole for good behavior in prison. The convict's good behavior may have been motivated by his desire to get out of prison, rather than a "free choice." So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    When the government acts in a way that is overly coercive, it can operate in such a way as to violate constitutional rights, even where there is still some semblance of a "choice."
    I don't follow your logic. If a rapist is faced with a choice between 25 years in prison and/or castration with 2 years probation, he may rightly feel that BOTH are "cruel and unusual punishment." But he committed the crime after all. If the state is willing to offer him that choice and he is willing to accept that choice, why not let him decide for himself which is crueler and more unusual? Why substitute a judge's opinion for the opinion of the person who will actually have to live with the consequences?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC
    2) Notwithstanding everything else, it's unconstitutional.
    Not the same situation. In that case, the vasectomy was MANDATORY. In this case, they're proposing OPTIONAL castration as an alternative to incarceration and/or in exchange for leniency. Furthermore, in that case the punishment was for ANY crimes except for a select few, whereas in this case the punishment is limited to crimes that might actually be PREVENTED by castration. Furthermore, the court ruled that Skinner v Oklahoma violated the Equal Protection Clause, not the 8th Amendment.

    Moreover, the zeitgeist in 1942 was horror over eugenics. These court opinions express grave concern that mandatory sterilization will somehow be used to sterilize entire races of people. 67 years later with Nazism a distant memory, the courts might very well not be so concerned over that sort of thing.




    And again, I'd like to point something out, since it's important in these discussions: We're talking about a surgical procedure with anesthesia here, not guillotining his balls.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-13-09 at 12:26 AM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  6. #36
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 09:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,067

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Europeans debate castration of sex offenders - International Herald Tribune









    I don't understand how one can support surgical castration while simultaneously opposing the death penalty.
    I support physical castration if their is physical evidence of rape of a child 12 or under and the offender is over 18. It is pretty much clear cut case that at la rape occur and there is no such thing as consent with a child that young.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  7. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Last Seen
    08-29-17 @ 09:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    16,575

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I support physical castration if their is physical evidence of rape of a child 12 or under and the offender is over 18. It is pretty much clear cut case that at la rape occur and there is no such thing as consent with a child that young.
    The problem I see with this is in MANY cases the assault isn't sexual it is about control. Taking away their sexual means by castrations, doesn't tame the need for control.

    IMO, all it will lead to is instead of the sexual control for the victim is the death of the victim. You have just created a murderer IMO.

  8. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Let's not also overlook the fact that castration is sterilization. Is the EU getting back into the practice of eugenics again to prevent pedophiles from reproducing?

    I believe it is willful coercion to offer them freedom from prison in exchange for sterilization.

  9. #39
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    The problem I see with this is in MANY cases the assault isn't sexual it is about control. Taking away their sexual means by castrations, doesn't tame the need for control.

    IMO, all it will lead to is instead of the sexual control for the victim is the death of the victim. You have just created a murderer IMO.
    I disagree. Even the need for control, as it pertains to rape cases, is predominantly a sexual impulse. The mentality of a rapist may be a little more complex than "I was horny" (although often it is not), but it's still nearly always a sexual urge that prompts him to act.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 03-13-09 at 01:19 AM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  10. #40
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Europeans debate castration of sex offenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Let's not also overlook the fact that castration is sterilization. Is the EU getting back into the practice of eugenics again to prevent pedophiles from reproducing?
    It's not so much about them not reproducing as it is about taming their sexual urges so they don't reoffend. Castration has proven to be very effective at greatly reducing (or completely eliminating) sex drive in human beings.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •