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Thread: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

  1. #101
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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Oh blow it out your ass.

    What? You're into rap music?

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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Moderator's Warning:
    Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    While blowing things out one's ass may be a great party trick for some, it's a party foul around these parts. Let's not push the civility line with such blatant encouragments to perform butt tricks in this manner.


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  3. #103
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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Kant's quote only applies in a system where others are breaking the golden rule. We have a justice system in lieu of the fact that not everybody has accepted it and not everybody is following it. It's a compromise. The key is to break the cycle of injustice so that the justice system is stripped of its necessity.
    I believe you have shifted the debate. Instead of the golden rule being the basis for moral action you have decided the justice system is the basis and the Golden Rule takes a back seat to the laws defined. This merely extends the problem to how the laws for the justice system were determined and whether they follow the golden rule or are somehow exempt from its limitations.

    If you reexamine the Kantian example without relying on the premise that laws are somehow trump to the Golden Rule then the problem with the Golden rule may appear more obvious to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    We make reasonable assumptions about what others would want based on what we want.
    And this is a guarantee of nothing. "Reasonable assumptions" are still flawed and in fact do not solve the problems that:
    1) You cannot know what others expect in many situations.
    2) Your expectations differ from others.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Today I was thinking about taking my elderly neighbor's dog for a walk. I thought about it and this is pretty much how my train of thought went.

    "If I were elderly and unable to walk my own dog whom I love, wouldn't I want someone to walk him for me?"

    "Only if they asked first"

    "I'll go ask"

    "Oh yeah, I'm sick and by contacting her I could get her sick and that could kill her. Surely she doesn't want to get sick and die." (a reasonable assumption)

    So I didn't go ask.
    You can give me a million examples of it working, but all I must do is find one example where it doesn't work to conclude its a defective solution.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  4. #104
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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I believe you have shifted the debate. Instead of the golden rule being the basis for moral action you have decided the justice system is the basis and the Golden Rule takes a back seat to the laws defined. This merely extends the problem to how the laws for the justice system were determined and whether they follow the golden rule or are somehow exempt from its limitations.

    If you reexamine the Kantian example without relying on the premise that laws are somehow trump to the Golden Rule then the problem with the Golden rule may appear more obvious to you.
    The judge is breaking the golden rule but so did the criminal to get there in the first place (unless of course we're talking about laws which are meant for social control rather than justice which im absolutely against). As I stated earlier, the justice system is a compromise I'm willing to accept until it is largely stripped of its necessity.

    And this is a guarantee of nothing. "Reasonable assumptions" are still flawed and in fact do not solve the problems that:
    1) You cannot know what others expect in many situations.
    2) Your expectations differ from others.

    You can give me a million examples of it working, but all I must do is find one example where it doesn't work to conclude its a defective solution.
    Very well. Find one.
    Last edited by BulletWounD; 03-12-09 at 02:57 AM.

  5. #105
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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    The judge is breaking the golden rule but so did the criminal who got there in the first place (unless of course we're talking about laws which are meant for social control rather than justice which im absolutely against). As I stated earlier, the justice system is a compromise I'm willing to accept until it is largely stripped of its necessity.
    Not quite. The one and only point of the example is to show a flaw in the Golden Rule. Its not about judges or modern day court systems!!! It highlight the problem that there is no standard for all human interests, situations, and values. Because there is no concrete standard then the Golden Rule cannot be applied without flaws.


    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Very well. Find one.
    I already have. We are discussing it above.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Not quite. The one and only point of the example is to show a flaw in the Golden Rule. Its not about judges or modern day court systems!!! It highlight the problem that there is no standard for all human interests, situations, and values. Because there is no concrete standard then the Golden Rule cannot be applied without flaws.
    Can you elaborate as to how "It highlight the problem that there is no standard for all human interests, situations, and values?"

  7. #107
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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Can you elaborate as to how "It highlight the problem that there is no standard for all human interests, situations, and values?"
    Yes.

    Human interests - Would you rather X or Y. (insert a different activity for X and Y and many people will choose differently. E.G. X = ski, Y = play tennis)

    Situations - Would you rather have X or Y happen to you. Insert a different situation for X and Y and many people will choose differently.

    Values - I think you get the point and I don't need to go on.

    I think its fairly obvious that many people hold many different values, expectations and interests. There are some common denominators, for example, most people believe its wrong to kill another human for no reason. but even such common denominators are narrowly defined because killing for many is acceptable in self defense. Additionally some find killing acceptable after certain provocation or for offenses you and I would find irrelevant.

    Tying it back into the Golden Rule: there is no standard for all human interests, situations, and values, therefore, doing unto others as I would have them do unto myself is flawed.
    Last edited by scourge99; 03-12-09 at 03:41 AM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  8. #108
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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Moderator's Warning:
    Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    While blowing things out one's ass may be a great party trick for some, it's a party foul around these parts. Let's not push the civility line with such blatant encouragments to perform butt tricks in this manner.

    Sorry, it was in jest.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Yes.

    Human interests - Would you rather X or Y. (insert a different activity for X and Y and many people will choose differently. E.G. X = ski, Y = play tennis)

    Situations - Would you rather have X or Y happen to you. Insert a different situation for X and Y and many people will choose differently.

    Values - I think you get the point and I don't need to go on.

    I think its fairly obvious that many people hold many different values, expectations and interests. There are some common denominators, for example, most people believe its wrong to kill another human for no reason. but even such common denominators are narrowly defined because killing for many is acceptable in self defense. Additionally some find killing acceptable after certain provocation or for offenses you and I would find irrelevant.

    Tying it back into the Golden Rule: there is no standard for all human interests, situations, and values, therefore, doing unto others as I would have them do unto myself is flawed.
    Yes, if we were to strictly adhere to the golden rule then we must accept that throwing people in jail and killing (even in self defense) are wrong; wrong but justifiable. The idea is to follow the golden rule and encourage others to do the same and in so doing gradually strip away the justification for violence.

  10. #110
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    Re: Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Yes, if we were to strictly adhere to the golden rule then we must accept that throwing people in jail and killing (even in self defense) are wrong
    no because I may not agree that jail is ever acceptable or I may believe that nother should kill me in self defense if they can.

    Just accept that the Golden Rule isn't some perfect ideal that can be used to solve any moral dilemma. That is the point afterall.

    The idea is to follow the golden rule and encourage others to do the same and in so doing gradually strip away the justification for violence.
    Violence stems from conflict. Conflict cannot be avoided with the Golden Rule as shown above thus your methodology for achieving Utopia is flawed.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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