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Thread: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I like you Bill so I will do you the favour of pointing out that there have been posters in this thread that have advocated for the elimination of the Islamic faith, the extinguishing of the lives of any who believe in Islam, and the unilateral nuclear holocaust of all of the Middle East on the basis that the entire region is "radical". If that isn't racist or in the least bigotted, I don't know what is.

    There has been very little moderate language in this thread in regards to who the villains are. The people I have a problem with are the ones who don't say, "Kill the terrorists!", but instead say, "Kill all of Islam!" That is unacceptable.
    Totally agree, but why is it OUR place to kill terrorists in the ME? Why hasn't the ME countries banned radiacl groups? Why don't they hunt them down and kill them? There has to be thousands of ME Arabs who know who the terrorists are, but do they turn them in to authorities? No, they are afraid that the authorities will be closet terrorists, they they will get visited in the night and killed.
    The people in the ME are the primary victims of terrorism, yet they do little to end it.
    If nukes ever get used in the ME, it will be one ME country against another. The fighting among the Sunni, shia, etc. is as stupid as the Irish catholics fighting Irish protestants.
    The agitators are the ones who MUST be killed...they are very unlikely willing to change.
    and NO apologizing or justifying of terrorist acts by anybody should be tolerated....

    Rather than send troops into Iraq, we should have just done an air/sea embargo around the countrys involved. Isolate them and let them suffer til they come to their senses....
    Last edited by UtahBill; 03-11-09 at 12:28 PM.
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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    If nukes ever get used in the ME, it will be one ME country against another. The fighting among the Sunni, shia, etc. is as stupid as the Irish catholics fighting Irish protestants.
    Agreed but it has been going on for a very long time.

    If anyone uses Nukes in ME it'll be one of 3 countries. Israel, Saudi Arabia or Iran.

    If Iran gets nukes it will scare all the Sunni countries and cause a Arms race.

    Isolate from oil? Nah.
    Last edited by Laila; 03-11-09 at 12:36 PM.

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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Agreed but it has been going on for a very long time.

    If anyone uses Nukes in ME it'll be one of 3 countries. Israel, Saudi Arabia or Iran.

    If Iran gets nukes it will scare all the Sunni countries and cause a Arms race.

    Isolate from oil? Nah.
    yes, isolate from oil, the American public needs to put up with some inconvenience for 2 reasons. One, to stop wasting energy so much, and two, to stop losing so many American soldiers for what is probably a lost cause anyway. You don't change the culture of a major portion of the world with a few bombs, or even a lot of bombs.
    SA has nukes?
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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    SA has nukes?
    Nah, it would be after Nukes tho if Iran managed to get a hold of it

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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Totally agree, but why is it OUR place to kill terrorists in the ME? Why hasn't the ME countries banned radiacl groups? Why don't they hunt them down and kill them? There has to be thousands of ME Arabs who know who the terrorists are, but do they turn them in to authorities? No, they are afraid that the authorities will be closet terrorists, they they will get visited in the night and killed.
    First of all, the Middle East is not all Arab. I would like to clarify that for you and anyone else who happens to read this. Ethnically, it is a very diverse region. For example, ethnically speaking, most people who inhabit Israel and the West bank and not even Arabs, they are of Yemeni descent. The universal use of the term "Arab" was invented by the European imperial powers and its misuse continues to this day. It's ironic because the people of Gaza (including Hamas) and the Israelis share a common ethnic origin, yet they both subscribe to the imperial labels that were cast upon the region (i.e. the Gazans are "Arabs" and the Israelis are not, when in reality neither is Arab). Essentially, the war between Israel and the Gazans is a war between the same ethnicity. Not many people know this though. Ethnic Arabs descend from Osroene (a.k.a Edessa) in ancient Mesopotamia.

    But I digress! (Sorry for that, it just bugs me when I see the term "Arab" misused so much.) In the context of what you said, I am to assume you mean "Arabs" as being a large portion of the Middle East, in which case I can only say that the matter is more complex than you make it out to be. Keeping in mind that the ME is diverse and most of the countries do not speak the same language, how do you propose that a regional front be made between the various peoples? The terrorist networks are multi-national, but the methods for fighting them are not. Two countries can't even agree on who the extremists are, and how to combat them. It was the U.S. "War on Terror" that tried to create a united front, but it lacked the cultural know-how to unify the cause regionally. (Plus, it doesn't help when the Western media is incredibly ignorant and racist towards the people it is claiming to help.)

    First of all, the radical right-wing religious people have a right to exist in many Middle Eastern countries, just like they do in the U.S. Secondly, even though their most radical ideas include violence, their core ideas espouse Islam, and this is why the masses gravitate to them. They espouse traditions in order to gain support, but they don't necessarily gain support by espousing violence. This is why I continually emphasize that the conflicts stemming from the Middle East and even the aspects which affect the West are not actually religious, but the radicals know religion and tradition is a common unifying theme to get more suport. It has nothing to do with Islam in reality. I frankly find it disturbing how both sides (the Middle Eastern radicals and the Western media) are so anxious to paint this as a religious war. It's not whatsoever. And finally, the actual terrorists are an even slimmer minority among the radical right. Just like you can't say every right-wing extremist in the U.S. is necessarily violent, the same goes for the right-wing extremists in the ME. So to say that the extremist right needs to be culled is inaccurate... the radical VIOLENT right needs to be culled. A person burning a U.S. flag in the street, while disturbing to Western audience, is not a terrorist; they are engaging in popular protest, which is their right. I agree they are radical, but they are not all about to strap bombs to their chests and jump at a U.S. tank.

    If you're referring to the Mullahs that are in the Theocratic governments, you can't strictly brand them as terrorists either just because they have draconian social policies. The ones in Iran, for example, may be socially draconian, but their economic policy has allowed Iran to flourish. They may dictate hatred but they themselves don't carry out the terrorism.

    So why don't people find the terrorists and disarm them? Why don't people anywhere hunt down the violent ones and pre-emptively remove them from society? It's the job of law enforcement and government to do that. Why should I endanger myself in confronting a terrorist just to satisfy someone else's political agenda? The vast majority in the ME are just trying to live their daily lives, they don't care for the ridiculous politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    The people in the ME are the primary victims of terrorism, yet they do little to end it.
    There are human rights groups at work in the Middle East that have been campaigning as far back as the 70's. They just don't appear in the Western media because it doesn't satisfy the Western political agenda. The Western powers have always wanted their own pieces of the Middle Eastern pie, and portraying themselves as a civilizing force is one such method of gaining public support in order to land there. You see, we too use Islam to justify war, just from a foreign perspective. In the ME there are women and children's rights groups, there are underground networks rescuing victims of rape, and there are resisters. Again, this is not what the Western media pays attention to. They need the Middle East to be the enemy to justify current campaigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    If nukes ever get used in the ME, it will be one ME country against another. The fighting among the Sunni, shia, etc. is as stupid as the Irish catholics fighting Irish protestants.
    The agitators are the ones who MUST be killed...they are very unlikely willing to change.
    and NO apologizing or justifying of terrorist acts by anybody should be tolerated....
    Please understand, I am not trying to justify terrorism or explain it away. I'm trying to shed light on the complexity of the matter. Surely if it were as simple as just finding the terrorists and removing them, it would have been done ages ago?

    It also becomes difficult when the terrorists in the Middle East have been, in the past, mobilized by rivaling Western powers like the USSR and the U.S., by giving them expert training, weapons resources, and new strategies on networking on the global level. This is why the Taliban is difficult to defeat. It's not as simple as telling ME civilians to rise up. All of NATO can't even take out the Taliban.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Rather than send troops into Iraq, we should have just done an air/sea embargo around the countrys involved. Isolate them and let them suffer til they come to their senses....
    The terrorist networks have more than sufficient know-how to get around this, and in the end it would just be a human rights calamity on our end. Starving countries of resources does not end their tyrannical regimes. The food for oil program is a perfect example of how starving Iraq did nothing to end Saddam's torturous rule.

    The key to removing terrorism in the ME is not to support the leftists or the rightists, but to support the moderates. However, this has NEVER been Western foreign policy. We formerly supported the rightists in order to fight the USSR, now we are supporting the leftists who want to destroy terrorists but also combat ME tradition; this is why the U.S. is hated in many places right now. If public policy moves too quickly away from tradition (which is VERY important in many Middle Eastern nations), then the public will reject the new policy and the right wing extremists will have ammunition to gain power. It will also alienate the moderates. However, catering to the right wing also hasn't worked, clearly. The moderates are the key to the long-term survival of the Middle East, and frankly, any nation on this earth.

    The West can start by stop putting puppets in power who are not moderates. That is part of the reason why the ME has so much radicalism in the governments right now.
    Last edited by Orion; 03-12-09 at 01:55 AM.

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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    First of all, the Middle East is not all Arab. I would like to clarify that for you and anyone else who happens to read this. Ethnically, it is a very diverse region. For example, ethnically speaking, most people who inhabit Israel and the West bank and not even Arabs, they are of Yemeni descent. The universal use of the term "Arab" was invented by the European imperial powers and its misuse continues to this day. It's ironic because the people of Gaza (including Hamas) and the Israelis share a common ethnic origin, yet they both subscribe to the imperial labels that were cast upon the region (i.e. the Gazans are "Arabs" and the Israelis are not, when in reality neither is Arab). Essentially, the war between Israel and the Gazans is a war between the same ethnicity. Not many people know this though. Ethnic Arabs descend from Osroene (a.k.a Edessa) in ancient Mesopotamia.

    But I digress! (Sorry for that, it just bugs me when I see the term "Arab" misused so much.) In the context of what you said, I am to assume you mean "Arabs" as being a large portion of the Middle East, in which case I can only say that the matter is more complex than you make it out to be. Keeping in mind that the ME is diverse and most of the countries do not speak the same language, how do you propose that a regional front be made between the various peoples? The terrorist networks are multi-national, but the methods for fighting them are not. Two countries can't even agree on who the extremists are, and how to combat them. It was the U.S. "War on Terror" that tried to create a united front, but it lacked the cultural know-how to unify the cause regionally. (Plus, it doesn't help when the Western media is incredibly ignorant and racist towards the people it is claiming to help.)

    First of all, the radical right-wing religious people have a right to exist in many Middle Eastern countries, just like they do in the U.S. Secondly, even though their most radical ideas include violence, their core ideas espouse Islam, and this is why the masses gravitate to them. They espouse traditions in order to gain support, but they don't necessarily gain support by espousing violence. This is why I continually emphasize that the conflicts stemming from the Middle East and even the aspects which affect the West are not actually religious, but the radicals know religion and tradition is a common unifying theme to get more suport. It has nothing to do with Islam in reality. I frankly find it disturbing how both sides (the Middle Eastern radicals and the Western media) are so anxious to paint this as a religious war. It's not whatsoever. And finally, the actual terrorists are an even slimmer minority among the radical right. Just like you can't say every right-wing extremist in the U.S. is necessarily violent, the same goes for the right-wing extremists in the ME. So to say that the extremist right needs to be culled is inaccurate... the radical VIOLENT right needs to be culled. A person burning a U.S. flag in the street, while disturbing to Western audience, is not a terrorist; they are engaging in popular protest, which is their right. I agree they are radical, but they are not all about to strap bombs to their chests and jump at a U.S. tank.

    If you're referring to the Mullahs that are in the Theocratic governments, you can't strictly brand them as terrorists either just because they have draconian social policies. The ones in Iran, for example, may be socially draconian, but their economic policy has allowed Iran to flourish. They may dictate hatred but they themselves don't carry out the terrorism.

    So why don't people find the terrorists and disarm them? Why don't people anywhere hunt down the violent ones and pre-emptively remove them from society? It's the job of law enforcement and government to do that. Why should I endanger myself in confronting a terrorist just to satisfy someone else's political agenda? The vast majority in the ME are just trying to live their daily lives, they don't care for the ridiculous politics.



    There are human rights groups at work in the Middle East that have been campaigning as far back as the 70's. They just don't appear in the Western media because it doesn't satisfy the Western political agenda. The Western powers have always wanted their own pieces of the Middle Eastern pie, and portraying themselves as a civilizing force is one such method of gaining public support in order to land there. You see, we too use Islam to justify war, just from a foreign perspective. In the ME there are women and children's rights groups, there are underground networks rescuing victims of rape, and there are resisters. Again, this is not what the Western media pays attention to. They need the Middle East to be the enemy to justify current campaigns.



    Please understand, I am not trying to justify terrorism or explain it away. I'm trying to shed light on the complexity of the matter. Surely if it were as simple as just finding the terrorists and removing them, it would have been done ages ago?

    It also becomes difficult when the terrorists in the Middle East have been, in the past, mobilized by rivaling Western powers like the USSR and the U.S., by giving them expert training, weapons resources, and new strategies on networking on the global level. This is why the Taliban is difficult to defeat. It's not as simple as telling ME civilians to rise up. All of NATO can't even take out the Taliban.



    The terrorist networks have more than sufficient know-how to get around this, and in the end it would just be a human rights calamity on our end. Starving countries of resources does not end their tyrannical regimes. The food for oil program is a perfect example of how starving Iraq did nothing to end Saddam's torturous rule.

    The key to removing terrorism in the ME is not to support the leftists or the rightists, but to support the moderates. However, this has NEVER been Western foreign policy. We formerly supported the rightists in order to fight the USSR, now we are supporting the leftists who want to destroy terrorists but also combat ME tradition; this is why the U.S. is hated in many places right now. If public policy moves too quickly away from tradition (which is VERY important in many Middle Eastern nations), then the public will reject the new policy and the right wing extremists will have ammunition to gain power. It will also alienate the moderates. However, catering to the right wing also hasn't worked, clearly. The moderates are the key to the long-term survival of the Middle East, and frankly, any nation on this earth.

    The West can start by stop putting puppets in power who are not moderates. That is part of the reason why the ME has so much radicalism in the governments right now.
    and YOU overcomplicate the issue....when WE have howegrown terrorists, we take them to court, convict them, and kill them. The ME govt leaders have no gonads....they are more than willing to let their people think it is evil America putting in puppet leaders rather than tell the truth. The govt leaders are in it for all the wrong reasons, and that is power and access to oil riches, and screw the common middle eastern citizen. Look at SA with all its palaces, monuments to greed and selfishness....
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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    A terrorist isn't a terrorist until they've committed the act. How many people in the Middle East ACTUALLY qualify as terrorists under this definition? Not as many as we are being made to believe. Too many people confuse idle radicalism with actual terrorism. Even among the radicals, terrorists are a minority.

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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    A terrorist isn't a terrorist until they've committed the act. How many people in the Middle East ACTUALLY qualify as terrorists under this definition? Not as many as we are being made to believe. Too many people confuse idle radicalism with actual terrorism. Even among the radicals, terrorists are a minority.
    govt sponsored teaching/preaching hatred toward other religions and countries is an act of terrorism....it is an act by one person that encourages others to do violence...
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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    govt sponsored teaching/preaching hatred toward other religions and countries is an act of terrorism....it is an act by one person that encourages others to do violence...
    No it isn't. Your definition is broad and unrealistic. There are plenty of people in any country that preach hatred, we hear about them every day on the news. Even though I don't like them, I won't call them terrorists.

    I also don't respect governments that preach hatred, but people also don't have to listen... and there are many moderates and liberals who don't listen. It is the radicals that do, and they are the ones that are easily mobilized based on emotional/religious appeal. In places like Iran, right now the radicals are the ones that control the military, so they have the power to preach whatever they want. This prevents the people from challening their authority. But also, the Iranian government has brought a relatively stable economic regime to the country, so they have more supporters for this reason.

    I mention Iran because you've given me no context to go on. You can't possibly be talking about the whole Middle East because there are liberal countries in the mix as well. FYI Saudi Arabia is one of the worst in terms of its human rights record and terrorist connections, yet it is a U.S. ally. Figure that one out.

    From a foreign policy standpoint, if you don't want there to be terrorism, STOP SUPPORTING IT. Stop giving funding and CIA training to rebels to serve your causes; stop installing radical right wing dictators who have an iron grip over populations but do whatever you say; stop giving financial and military aid to nations whose own foreign policy is more questionable than yours. Stop supporting Israel and aggravating regional rivalries.

    The Taliban would not be where it is today without the training and resources provided by the U.S. The Iranian government would not be where it is today if the original democratic government was not overthrown in a sponsored coup d'état. Now that these radicals are in power, the solution seems to escape us all. The solution is to stop meddling in the region.
    Last edited by Orion; 03-12-09 at 01:47 PM.

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    Re: Elderly Saudi woman sentenced to lashings

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    No it isn't. Your definition is broad and unrealistic. There are plenty of people in any country that preach hatred, we hear about them every day on the news. Even though I don't like them, I won't call them terrorists.
    .
    your ignorant, unfounded, and biased opinion is noted, and ignored....since rational thinking is foreign to you, I will cease arguing with you. Have a nice life in that strange little world you live in...
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