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Thread: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

  1. #61
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    No, it was socialism.
    Freddie and Fannie.

    Using bank loans as social programs.

    And for the trillions they have wasted on social engineering that would have had far more positive effect left in the hands of the people.

    This is where the Kanuckistani's cannot social engineer and therefore their banks remained in better shape.

    They don't have a culture they feel guilty about, have an ACORN, and therefore did not get into copying the US's perverse idea of forcing loans on folks that could not pay them back.
    No disagreement concerning the disproportionate role played by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. However, one also cannot escape the reality that the U.S. provides special tax preferences for real estate that do not apply to other capital assets:

    1. A maximum exclusion on the gain from a sale of a home of $250,000 ($500,000 for married couples).
    2. Tax-deductibility of mortgage interest (unlike interest on other forms of consumer debt).

    These tax preferences make real estate more attractive than other capital assets. They also provide an incentive for taking on greater leverage in making real estate purchases. Excessive leverage is a key reason the fall in home prices has substantially undermined the nation's banking system.

    Canada, by the way, does not permit the tax-deductibility of mortgage interest and allows a deduction of two-thirds of the gain on a sale of a home ensuring that every home sold at a gain results in a tax on that gain. Yet, more than two-thirds of Canadians own their own homes (a rate that will, ironically, wind up higher than the U.S. rate by the time the current recession ends).

    Of course, I highly doubt that the role the popular tax preferences allowed for real estate would gain the scrutiny they deserve except in economics journals and among academics. Yet, it is plausible that those preferences played a significant role in helping feed the real estate bubble once the mania was underway.

    Finally, I highly doubt that were the Fed to make home price stability a component of its monetary policy goals that such an approach would be embraced. Nevertheless, emerging findings by economists suggest that the risks associated with real estate bubbles merit possible monetary policy consideration. Indeed, in its February 6, 2009 report on the initial lessons of the ongoing economic crisis, the IMF recommended, "Central banks should adopt a broader macro-prudential view, taking into account in their decisions asset price movements, credit booms, leverage, and the build up of systemic risk." It added, "The timing and nature of preemptive polic responses to large imbalances...needs to be reexamined." In other words, the Fed's existing "hands off" approach when it comes to preemptively curbing real estate price appreciation is something that the IMF believes needs to be reexamined.

    The bottom line is that the housing bubble and its after effects were the consequence of a large number of factors. Federal policy that aimed at expanding home ownership to lower-income persons via expansion of the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) and role played by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are just one aspect of the matter. Longstanding and highly popular tax preferences are another. The lack of a monetary policy tool/response to rising home prices is another. The role innovation (particularly securitization and the rise of synthetic finance) played is another. One cannot reduce the risk and mitigate the consequences of future housing bubbles without taking a comprehensive look at all of the factors that contributed.

    Now, to be sure, I am not necessarily arguing for repeal of the real estate-based tax preferences, and even if repeal were the approach, a grandfathering for existing homeowners or incremental phaseout for a transition would be necessary. I am suggesting that a pragmatic and comprehensive examination is in order and one cannot create "sacred cows" that are exempt from scrutiny. The problem was far more than the result of "social engineering."

    Indeed, during the 1980s Japan saw the rise of a massive housing bubble that had nothing to do with policies remotely similar to the CRA or institutions modeled after Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The international experience contains a large number of cases of destructive housing bubbles. There is far more to the story than "social engineering." Furthermore, when such bubbles collapsed the economic contractions were, on average, far more severe and longer-lasting than recessions associated strictly with the business cycle.

  2. #62
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    No disagreement concerning the disproportionate role played by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. However, one also cannot escape the reality that the U.S. provides special tax preferences for real estate that do not apply to other capital assets:
    Yes

    These tax preferences make real estate more attractive than other capital assets. They also provide an incentive for taking on greater leverage in making real estate purchases. Excessive leverage is a key reason the fall in home prices has substantially undermined the nation's banking system.
    Perhaps but the individual signing the contact is the one who ultimately knows if he can or cannot make the sacrifices to meet his contractual obligations.

    If he has any doubt, then he should find out.

    Amount of leverage is a personal decision. Who knows if the guy lives like a hermit the remainder of the time, allowing him to live up to the agreement, or if he lived too high. That is each person's decision to make.

    It's also a responsibility of the bank to find out how people will manage to pay. If the guy really is a hermit or not.

    Government forcing banks to loan to deadbeats is just a recipe for what we have.

    These people were merely renters... you own after it's paid off... so the government should have these people go back to what they were really doing instead of burdening the rest of us.

    And let people like me scoop up a bunch of units and rent them out. Even sell them to the occupants. But if they miss a payment...

    ...Go ask Mommy Dearest Obama to sort out your life.
    Not.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  3. #63
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    If only two people believed in his policies: how did he get elected?
    Like you don't know.

    He got elected as a direct result of the following:
    Lack of knowledge of the voter base. (in general)
    A biased media. (bashing republicans, Bush and his admin, and then pushing Obama.)
    His lies/message. (that the uninformed bought into.)
    A opposition candidate that appeared less viable. (because of the reasons listed above.)

    The man had no experience, wasn't vetted thoroughly and was excused for involvements and associations when he shouldn't have been.



    :::::::::::::::::::::::

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    It is tragic that so many conservatives here still don't realize why they lost the election.
    It is also tragic that many of the liberals here do not understand why they won.
    And for some, they are starting to realize they made a bad choice.



    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    They have had their ass whooped in the election...
    Whooped?
    How in the world to you get whooped?
    I certainly don't see a 4% margin as a 'whooping'.



    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    ... and still think that the current path of the GOP is valid.
    Not saying I agree with it, but, there is, and has been, validity to the GOP's current path.


    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Times change, and so has the voting public. They know that what we had wasn't working, and voted out the GOP.
    That isn't it at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Local ads here in Utah show a single mom (dressed in a waitress outfit) having to put her little girl to bed without supper because there was no food in the house. That is hardly an accurate portrayal of the typical food bank recipeient, but it is meant to get people to donate food. If the people who get food from food banks were accurately portrayed, the donations would dry up.
    Just another example of the length that those who portray this message will go to, to lie to the public, to have their agenda met.


    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    People standing in line smoking cigarettes (expensive habit), hair and nails done up, driving nice cars, and looking for free food. And so many of them are FAT !!!
    Up until recently, I would have said that most of them got in their positions by making bad choices, dropping out of school, making themselves unemployable, etc. If it was just them, I would let them go hungry, but they have children, and some use their children to gain sympathy.
    Just an example of why these type of people should not be allowed to have children.
    These children, are growing up the way there parents are teaching them.
    They will be the next generation doing the same things. Demanding support from the Government and voting along the same lines of thinking.
    Which is exactly where the Democrats get their voter base from, and a big part of the reason why Obama won.

    The above two quotes are also an example of why a person should dig into the statistics presented to support said programs.



    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    But now is a bit different...many are in bad shape due to losing their jobs and they are suffering for the sins of others.
    Not really. Not yet.
    People still made bad choices and it is their responsibility.

  4. #64
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Ever read Adam Smith?
    Anything from Milton Friedman?
    von Mises or Hayek?

    .
    ever read henry ford? why would a capitalist pay his employees more than the going wage? because they are CONSUMERS...if you keep kicking the american employee to the curb in favor of cheaper labor overseas, you might find that your product no longer sells well at home...
    granted, a lot of americans are overpaid, abusing their union status or their corporate power to demand more than they are worth, .
    Publicly owned companies owe a profit to their share holders, IF there is a profit made. employees from bottom to top are reaping the results of their stupidity. share holders are getting screwed as a result...
    Where did Smith, Friedman, et al address mass stupidity and greed as a factor in capitalism? Where did they foresee that govt overseers would be complicit in killing capitalism? I haven't read them, I suppose you have. I bet they at no time anticipated the mass stupidity going on now.
    Doesn't affect me much, tho, nearly all my assets are paid for, my asset to debt ratio is well over 10 to 1, and all debt will be paid off in a few years.
    I know how to live within my means and prepare for the future. It appears that big banking, the corporate world, and government at all levels do not...
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  5. #65
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    When you stubbornly and arrogantly hold to your failed right-wing ideals and hope that America tanks because of Obama's policies...you are praying for America to fail. Love how you Limbaugh fanatics love to spin your way out of it.
    In all the years of GWB...I disliked the man and his policies but I never hoped that he or the Country would fail.
    I am a Limbaugh fanatic? I haven't even heard him in YEARS!

    I don't want America to fail, and neither does Rush.

    If you actually HEARD what head said, rather than the snippet the left loves to trot out, you would know that he doesn't want America to fail. Of course, the left ignores facts to present their warped agenda.
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Its funny that these people said when Bush was in power "you should always follow and listen to your president and respect him, even if you disagree", yet now they are acting completely different when Obama is in power. The whole "commander in chief" card seems to be obsolete in their ideology and wish to bring down their own president.
    I hope you aren't talking about ME. I have always shown nothing but respect for Barack Obama - as a senator, candidate, president, father, fellow human being, whatever. You can't find any post I have made in reference to President Obama that is otherwise.

    However, if his goal is to bring America down the road of socialism, OF COURSE I want him to fail. That is NOT the road America needs to follow.
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I agree. The problem with relying on charity alone for a safety-net is that in times of economic hardship charitable giving falls way off. Food banks around the country are having a hard time right now.
    Agreed. I am not against the government helping those who truly need it. It is part of our responsibility as a civilized culture to help those who are less fortunate. I think the objection by many (one shared by me) is those who live off the system due to their own choices rather than going out there to find a job.
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    So, what does one do when people are not able to feed themselves because their greedy corporate bosses could not spare company "Growth"?
    Conservatives, if inclinations are correct your job may be at risk to. Put yourself in the situation of someone who is dependent on food stamps in order to live.

    Honestly fellas, this is not 1996 anymore. People who are on FOOD STAMPS ARE NOT EXPLOITING THE SYSTEM, THEY ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO SURVIVE; there is a good reason why the unemployment rate and the rate of food stamps are so high.

    FFS.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  9. #69
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Yes

    Perhaps but the individual signing the contact is the one who ultimately knows if he can or cannot make the sacrifices to meet his contractual obligations.

    If he has any doubt, then he should find out.

    Amount of leverage is a personal decision. Who knows if the guy lives like a hermit the remainder of the time, allowing him to live up to the agreement, or if he lived too high. That is each person's decision to make.
    The current economic crisis shows that leverage cannot run out of control. The situation where outstanding mortgage debt rose to more than 100% of GDP, well beyond its previous mark of 65.9% of GDP, shows that too much leverage is highly dangerous when it comes to the macroeconomy. Furthermore, past experience concerning sovereign debt defaults also highlights the dangers of excessive leverage.

    It's also a responsibility of the bank to find out how people will manage to pay. If the guy really is a hermit or not.

    Government forcing banks to loan to deadbeats is just a recipe for what we have.
    I agree that the government should not compel banks to make loans to risky borrowers and believe that such policies as the expansion of CRA were policy blunders. However, as the housing bubble was inflating, private sector risk management was disintegrating. Financial institutions increasingly believed that securitization shifted risk away from the banks (a flawed judgment), a compensation model based on commissions for mortgage origination placed emphasis on revenue generation as opposed to profit generation, excessive concentration (often >67%) of bank loan portfolios in real estate amplified financial sector risk, and accounting rules that allowed various items to be kept off the balance sheet and lack of expensing of stock options even as such options have a dilutive impact for shareholders undercut the benefits of transparency.

    Bad government policy and bad financial sector risk management were both present, among other factors, in the run-up of the bubble. Toward the peak of the bubble, there was literally a race to the bottom among financial institutions--a dramatic lowering of lending standards--in a bid to gain incremental market share.
    Last edited by donsutherland1; 03-07-09 at 08:53 PM.

  10. #70
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    Re: Record 31.8 million on food stamps

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I hope you aren't talking about ME. I have always shown nothing but respect for Barack Obama - as a senator, candidate, president, father, fellow human being, whatever. You can't find any post I have made in reference to President Obama that is otherwise.

    However, if his goal is to bring America down the road of socialism, OF COURSE I want him to fail. That is NOT the road America needs to follow.
    I am not talking about you, mostly the people who want to see Obama fail, and some who even utter that they want to bring down his presidency(a large conservative group)..
    Europe is illegally occupied by the US

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