• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Senate Republicans force delay on spending bill

As are Democrats. Some day you will understand that today's Democrats and Republicans are not so different.

There is a profound difference in philosophy however; Republicans still profess a belief in Capital markets and reduced Government. Democrats on the other hand believe in massive Government spending and taxation of the very people who form capital and create jobs, demagogue capitalists with populist rhetoric and believe in creating a dependent class of citizens on the Government.
 
There is a profound difference in philosophy however; Republicans still profess a belief in Capital markets and reduced Government. Democrats on the other hand believe in massive Government spending and taxation of the very people who form capital and create jobs, demagogue capitalists with populist rhetoric and believe in creating a dependent class of citizens on the Government.

Yet they make a mockery of their party by passing stimulus bills and refunds. :shrug:
 
Yet they make a mockery of their party by passing stimulus bills and refunds. :shrug:

And yet, the Republicans are the ones who continue to be impugned while Democrats get a free pass? Yes certain Republicans make a mockery of their party by voting for such legislation and earmarks in OUR opinion; but the alternative is to empower a party that has no qualms about it.

Like I said, I find it hard to say I am Republican; I am Conservative who believes in the Liberalist philosophy that made this nation the greatest nation on earth. I choose the lesser of the two evils which is why I vote for candidates I have to hold my nose for.

But with all this said, I also do not wallow in denial and vacuum of facts or reality. The Republicans have their warts, but the Democrat party has hidden their warts with canker sores. :2wave:
 
Okay, and many of our Republican political leaders are right there with him with their pet projects. Which was my point. You painted this as the Republicans standing up to the out of control spending, I simply pointed out that as a "politics as usual", many Republicans are standing shoulder to shoulder with the Democrats on this massively out of control bill. They lack ONE Republican vote to make this happen. And that vote can be bought for about a dozen amendments or less.

Yeah, Republicans are standing up to Obama's wasteful spending alright.

Your point is a good one, and the very fact that both parties are ultimately concerned only with their own prosperity, and everything else being a secondary concern is not only obvious to anyone willing to actually pay attention without bias, but also the underlying cause of how we got to the disaster we are in today.

Still it seems most are only too happy to sit back and root for their team, and almost everyone else just accepts trying to find the least of the evils to vote into office.

Problem is that there is an unbelievable amount of power and dollars involved here, and this seems to overshadow any initial good moral intent of any lawmakers.

So though it may seem to save us all a few hundred million in spending if there is opposition to the rampant spending we are seeing today from the democratic party (who seems to view their new majority and current economic conditions as a license to steal from the American public) is not only a laugh in comparison to the amounts being discussed, but also may end up being a total laugh as the opposition is "bought" with inclusions of their own desired pork.

You can debate socialism all you like (I do not even care if you agree on the definition or not) but what we are seeing here is not truly socialism, and though it is obviously a move in that direction and a very serious attack on the very make up of our country and government it has many more potential problems than many are willing to admit to.

The question should be is adding to the power of government and ever increasing its size while creating many new programs that are popular in socialist countries a good or bad thing for America, capitalism, and the American people?

I believe to properly answer this question one needs to have a good understanding of just how our government works, how our tax system works, all the other ways our government creates revenue (I would be surprised if the majority of money used to support government came from income tax, or if the working class was not supplying the majority of this income), how things are actually done in politics (like how the ordeal with IL Gov. Blago is only politics as usual, and absolutely the norm and not the exception), how corporations have a large amount of clout in the creation of new laws, where the BIG money has gone, why two family members need to be working to achieve less than our grandparents, and exactly what is the long term plan for our country and who is making and going to prosper from this plan and who is not.

Sound like a lot to think about all at once? I think it is as well, but if we want to be able to help ourselves improve our future we will need to understand all of this and more, and though we do not have to agree on every point etc we do need to accept the basics and why we have found our way to where we are if we are to expect to have any chance of making things better for the future.

One other issue is that nothing worth having will come easy, and all sides and ways of thinking will need to give up something.

Remember that those who have the advantage now have fought to get it, and will fight to maintain it to extremes I do not believe many would accept, and if we (the working class, and working poor) are to expect to get back anything we will need to fight for it.

Now the question is just how hard are you willing to fight, how much time are you going to invest, and just how seriously are you going to attempt to fight for your way of life?

This may sound a little odd (it did to me at first as well) but unless you like your wife having to work to be able to pay your bills and not live in the street, and love the idea of strangers raising your children, having the government run school system instill their beliefs into your children, risk losing everything you have managed to earn by allowing the current system of he with the most $$$ gets the laws he wants passed which will only lead to additional wasteful government spending (will trillions only be the beginning?) which will continue to whittle away at the American dream while our government continues to pander to the various communist and tyrant run countries that hold our debt.

Too many people on both sides of the political divide, and way too many corporations have been selling the US down the river for too long while realizing gains for themselves that the average American would find unthinkable or unbelievable.

Our system is and has been out of balance for a long time now, and it seems neither party is able to bring things back to being balanced. If our politicians can not or are just unwilling to make the hard choices to fix this problem (the one they engineered in the first place) then the responsibility will ultimately fall on the American public.

If the politicians or the American public do not stand up to the challenge then we can expect more of the same of what we have today and whatever the balance of the river we are rolling down throws our way.

How are you going to make a difference?
 
Your point is a good one, and the very fact that both parties are ultimately concerned only with their own prosperity, and everything else being a secondary concern is not only obvious to anyone willing to actually pay attention without bias, but also the underlying cause of how we got to the disaster we are in today.

Still it seems most are only too happy to sit back and root for their team, and almost everyone else just accepts trying to find the least of the evils to vote into office.

Problem is that there is an unbelievable amount of power and dollars involved here, and this seems to overshadow any initial good moral intent of any lawmakers.

So though it may seem to save us all a few hundred million in spending if there is opposition to the rampant spending we are seeing today from the democratic party (who seems to view their new majority and current economic conditions as a license to steal from the American public) is not only a laugh in comparison to the amounts being discussed, but also may end up being a total laugh as the opposition is "bought" with inclusions of their own desired pork.

You can debate socialism all you like (I do not even care if you agree on the definition or not) but what we are seeing here is not truly socialism, and though it is obviously a move in that direction and a very serious attack on the very make up of our country and government it has many more potential problems than many are willing to admit to.

The question should be is adding to the power of government and ever increasing its size while creating many new programs that are popular in socialist countries a good or bad thing for America, capitalism, and the American people?

I believe to properly answer this question one needs to have a good understanding of just how our government works, how our tax system works, all the other ways our government creates revenue (I would be surprised if the majority of money used to support government came from income tax, or if the working class was not supplying the majority of this income), how things are actually done in politics (like how the ordeal with IL Gov. Blago is only politics as usual, and absolutely the norm and not the exception), how corporations have a large amount of clout in the creation of new laws, where the BIG money has gone, why two family members need to be working to achieve less than our grandparents, and exactly what is the long term plan for our country and who is making and going to prosper from this plan and who is not.

Sound like a lot to think about all at once? I think it is as well, but if we want to be able to help ourselves improve our future we will need to understand all of this and more, and though we do not have to agree on every point etc we do need to accept the basics and why we have found our way to where we are if we are to expect to have any chance of making things better for the future.

One other issue is that nothing worth having will come easy, and all sides and ways of thinking will need to give up something.

Remember that those who have the advantage now have fought to get it, and will fight to maintain it to extremes I do not believe many would accept, and if we (the working class, and working poor) are to expect to get back anything we will need to fight for it.

Now the question is just how hard are you willing to fight, how much time are you going to invest, and just how seriously are you going to attempt to fight for your way of life?

This may sound a little odd (it did to me at first as well) but unless you like your wife having to work to be able to pay your bills and not live in the street, and love the idea of strangers raising your children, having the government run school system instill their beliefs into your children, risk losing everything you have managed to earn by allowing the current system of he with the most $$$ gets the laws he wants passed which will only lead to additional wasteful government spending (will trillions only be the beginning?) which will continue to whittle away at the American dream while our government continues to pander to the various communist and tyrant run countries that hold our debt.

Too many people on both sides of the political divide, and way too many corporations have been selling the US down the river for too long while realizing gains for themselves that the average American would find unthinkable or unbelievable.

Our system is and has been out of balance for a long time now, and it seems neither party is able to bring things back to being balanced. If our politicians can not or are just unwilling to make the hard choices to fix this problem (the one they engineered in the first place) then the responsibility will ultimately fall on the American public.

If the politicians or the American public do not stand up to the challenge then we can expect more of the same of what we have today and whatever the balance of the river we are rolling down throws our way.

How are you going to make a difference?

I read your treatise and am not sure what your point is here Lenny; so let me ask you a few questions:

(1) What is your notion about "balance" you talk about above?

(2) What is the main cause of poverty in this nation in your opinion?

(3) How do you think people who have been born to poverty, eventually rose above it?

I am assuming your statements are about the haves vs. the have-nots.
 
I find this argument amusing and trite as well; that because Republicans are doing it, this excuses the behavior.

I watched this trite commentary on MSNBC the other day that claimed that 40% of the earmarks were Republican districts as if this somehow excuses the behavior.

Yes, Republicans who add their earmarks are hypocrites, but what about the "candidate" that claimed this practice would cease when he became President?

This is not a debate about Republican hypocrisy as much as Liberals want to divert the debate to it; this is about irresponsible Democrats who control the voting, control the legislative process and control the White House who continue to abuse the legislative process by inserting pet projects into bills without debate.

I am hardly surprised to see you and other Liberals attempt to divert the debate back onto Republicans who currently cannot stop any legislation and are in the extreme minority and whine about their intransigence and refusal to go along and play the same old game.

Fascinating that during Bush's Presidency Liberals whined about how the Republicans rubber stamped his agenda, along with a substantial amount of votes from democrats, but now thinks all legislation should be "rubber" stamped using the trite and overused partisan rhetoric that it is necessary to save the economy.

Of course factual evidence of this is non-existent; but since when have the facts or reality ever impacted Liberal talking points and fear mongering?

Excuse me, where did I ever say that "because Republicans are doing it, it excuses the behavior."

Trite? How about you come after me over something I've actually said.
 
So you're saying conservatives are hypocrites, got it.




The Problem with this statement is that it demonstrates a blind loyalty to party...


Both sides are hypocrites the difference right now is that many on the right are cheering when we stop acting like hypocrites and try to stall these spending bills. still hypocrites but doing the right thing now, even if for the wrong reason (political image)

it's a start.... Obama also promised to reduced spending, but right now the dems are cheering for the biggest increase in spending ever....
 
Why don't Republicans take the step of removing their earmarks from the spending bill? Then Democrats would follow suit and everyone would be happy.
 
Word is that the Senate worked late yesterday allowing the Republicans to offer amendments, and then successfully voted them down. They also alleviated some fears that some Dems and Reps had regarding Cuba. It is supposed to go to a vote today with enough support to pass. Obama has pledged to sign it quickly should it pass.

I don't have a link to this yet, I got the info from a colleague who works the Hill. I imagine it will break soon. If you get the CongressDailyAM/National Journal (which I doubt many do because quite frankly it's boring as hell and you wouldn't want to read it unless you worked with Congress on issues) it's in this mornings edition also. I'm going to look for the online link.

EDIT: I can't link to it because it's subscriber based only...pay site. But anyway, I read it there just a minute ago. So we'll see.

EDIT AGAIN: Apparently it's broke.

Senate expects final spending bill vote today.

Strategy Memo: Omnibus Vote Today.
 
Last edited:
I read your treatise and am not sure what your point is here Lenny; so let me ask you a few questions:

(1) What is your notion about "balance" you talk about above?

(2) What is the main cause of poverty in this nation in your opinion?

(3) How do you think people who have been born to poverty, eventually rose above it?

I am assuming your statements are about the haves vs. the have-nots.

I appreciate your interest in my thoughts, but I am not sure my words would truly equal a treatise.

My points may not have been as you believe, but I will try to expand.

My reference to balance is actually pretty simple, and just like the Chinese Yin and Yang define there is a balance of everything in the world. We all can have different views on this and what balance is in general but what I am speaking of is the changes to everything that connects to something when one part becomes out of balance.

I did not mean that the initial out of balance issue was the current levels of "haves and have nots" or even what I do believe to be true in the amount of wealth currently separating the haves and haves a littles (haves a littles being the working class etc) but rather I was trying to point out that there was a separate issue that became out of balance that ultimately caused us to come to where we are today.

This unbalance I speak of was created when the politicians learned how to fully manipulate our systems. Before you discount the rest just try and consider that from their working our system to remove protections, introduce new protections for themselves, and basically infiltrate simultaneously the Federal Reserve, Taxes, and various loop holes specifically created to allow this all to happen.

What I am getting at is that politics had become too powerful, and with this power started things to become off balance. Not only was government no designed to be of the size and power it is today and has been for some time, but once this became out of balance it also caused many other things to follow suit.

See after they figured how to get away with economical "murder" they needed new ways to both finance themselves, and also further increase control. Part of this was the need to have an ever increasing amount of corporate consolidation of private industry and small business to maintain their political contributions and "pay to play" to make up for the loss of wealth of the larger amount of individual contributors, and the ever growing government we have seen etc.

At this same time there were also other imbalances working on everything as well. Some were possibly a result, and others coincidence etc but there was changes happening at this same time to our GDP, wages, tax rates, exports, imports, changes in manufacturing, introduction of various new taxes hidden as fees, licenses, permits, registrations, use taxes and so many new ways to redistribute the costs of running an ever increasing government therefore actually redistributing wealth at the same time.

There have been so many changes that have happened as a result of these things being out of balance that I would not know where to start, but no matter if you want to discuss the changes from anything from the import/export imbalance to the haves and have nots to the power of government increasing while the power of the people has decreased right on down to the municipal level it comes right down to the fact that things are not balanced.

We have too few true middle class families, too many families relying on assistance, and apparently too much of the overall remaining wealth of America being held and controlled by a small few.

I do not believe in communism, or socialism as an answer for our current conditions, but I also can see with the squeezing of the once middle class combined with the increase in levels of the working poor, and poor with little opportunity for actually fighting their way into the ranks of wealthy America.

What many seem to miss is that the cost of running an ever increasing government is a large part of the problem, and is majorly out of balance.
 
Senate Passes Huge Spending Bill, Heads to Obama for Signature.
WASHINGTON -- Congress on Tuesday cleared for President Obama's signature a $410 billion measure to fund the government, a measure denounced by most Republicans as an example of reckless spending.

The Senate approved the measure by voice after it cleared a key procedural hurdle by a 62-35 vote. Sixty votes were required to shut down debate.

Obama will sign the measure Wednesday, the White House said, but he will also announce steps aimed at curbing lawmakers' penchant for pet projects.

The $410 billion bill is chock-full of lawmakers' pet projects and significant increases in food aid for the poor, energy research and other programs. It was supposed to have been completed last fall.

Yeehaw!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Woohoo! Let's piss some more money away! Besides, everyone knows that throwing money at a problem makes it go away.

:sarcasticclap

Well I had some very worthwhile projects on that bill. So it's not all bad.

;)
 
Woohoo! Let's piss some more money away! Besides, everyone knows that throwing money at a problem makes it go away.

:sarcasticclap


That is how the great state of NJ has fixed all their problems for years.

Judging by how well it works with urban school systems there it has to be good for the rest of the country :roll:

Can anyone else see the connection between the fact that the states with the most amounts of wasted dollars also have the most problems to show for it?
 
I'm getting this bumper sticker, even though I payed for my place already.

FE_PR_090301homefront.jpg


I find it relevant to topic at hand.
 
Back
Top Bottom