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Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

*shakes head*

No need to be snarky, TOJ.

Let's start with lazy. It's a pretty broad assumption, don't you think? Lazy as in not wanting to work? Lazy in someone being a couch potato? And what does that have to do in relation getting healthcare in Canada?


One who does not pay debts. I'm asking which debts???? Their bills, their mortgage, their Visa???? So according to you, everyone that has debt is a deadbeat.
Only if they don't pay their debts.

Sorry for wanting clarification. :doh

.
Damn, reading comprehension not a priority I guess.

Random House Dictionary said:
dead·beat 1 (děd'bēt') Pronunciation Key
n.
One who does not pay one's debts.
A lazy person; a loafer.
Does not pay ones debts does not mean someone who has debt.
 
Canadians will also say their healthcare is "free." If you want to play semantics, go nuts.

Bottom line is Canadians do not get turned away from any hospital or clinic. We expect to recieve care each and every time.

And you have to wait and wait.

How is that any different from not being insured?

Would you buy car insurance if you couldn't file your claim and be settled in the same month?
 
tlmorg02 said:
I do not see what it is you are seeing, but tell me then, how do you think healthcare should be remedied. If it continues as is, then companies will no longer be capable of providing their employees coverage, and no one can afford the rates on their own.

Nice dodge! The major issues concerning health care costs and their fixes have already been listed earlier in this thread. Go back and read some of them for a more indepth understanding.

Why is it the company's responsibility to cover their workers? Thats a benefit, not a right. Saying that you can't afford health care on your own is not misleading, its a boldfaced LIE. Even with my poor paycheck I can afford to dump $174 a month for coverage and future upgrade bonuses for a future family. Maybe you meant if you have heavy pre-conditions, in which case you'll be paying out the nose when you START with a new policy.

The solution is Preventative Healthcare!!! Insurance companies will have to say good-bye to the extreme profits that allow them to give CEO's like Larry Glasscock of Anthem, $4million annual bonuses while shipping jobs overseas. At the same time, insurance companies, as Cap. C. said, dictate how medicine is practiced. If private insurance were to take the approach of dental insurance for example, and provide free preventative medicine, then costs would go down overall as people would not wait until they have full-blown cancer before they seek costly treatment.

Teeth are alot simpler than a body. Preventitive Healthcare is going to involve telling you what you can or cannot do or risk revoking your health insurance. Its going to mandate that patients with existing conditions will go where they are told to go, and take what treatments they're told to do or risk loosing their healthcare. The UK is finally having to do this to cut down on the skyrocketing costs of their own UHC. They're also having to dip into other tax revenues since their "smoking tax" ploy is bottoming out.
 
Lets be realistic shall we? Your extremes do not prove a point, they only prove you extreme. The product, a motorcylce, in your example does not kill the person in question directly. Dumping waste into drinking water, or denying healthcare directly kills people.

tlmorg02 said:
TOJ said:
Really? So you are saying that anything that someone makes a profit from should not be allowed if someone might die as a result?

If in doing so lives are at a proven direct risk, then no. So, say a company makes higher profits by dumping toxic waste into a local water source and people will die from drinking the water, then the company has no right to pursue that avenue for profit.
I think you are the one being unrealistic.

A doctor refusing to treat a person for whatever reason does not directly kill the person. The underlying disease or the trauma from the accident is what kills the person.
 
I think you are the one being unrealistic.

A doctor refusing to treat a person for whatever reason does not directly kill the person. The underlying disease or the trauma from the accident is what kills the person.


It wasn't me, your Honor, that killed my baby... it was the lack of food that did it. ;)
 
And you have to wait and wait.

How is that any different from not being insured?

Would you buy car insurance if you couldn't file your claim and be settled in the same month?

But those with need get in. A guy needing an immediate operation is not told to wait so that a kid can get a band aid put on.
 
But those with need get in. A guy needing an immediate operation is not told to wait so that a kid can get a band aid put on.

You are right but what about those that they don't know that need to get in just as much.

In the U.S. they get served rather quickly and the doctors realize after the fact how necessary it was for them to be treated.

In countries with UHC they don't and it could make them worse waiting. It also keeps people with say knee surgeries from getting treatment and getting back to work quickly causing the economy to suffer for lack of productivity.

The flaws with UHC or NHC or whatever anyone wants to call it are numerous and worse to the economy than our current system.
 
I agree with CC in the sense that better reform of the insurance companies could relieve a lot of tension for millions of people, but with the level of corporate socialism that exists in the U.S. today, that is highly unlikely. It's because of the corrupt corporations that UHC is on the table in the first place, since the insurance companies make it so complicated and unaffordable to use their services.

I disagree with what has been said about health care not being a right but a privilege. Maybe in the U.S. this is the case, but in all the other developed nations that provide UHC, it is legislated. I know in Canada it is.

The only problem with regulating the insurance companies is that it still doesn't address the fact that millions of people cannot afford the monthly premiums anyway, and thus are left blowing in the wind; but because the U.S. is so anti-socialist when it comes to helping the poor, the typical response has always been: the lower class isn't important so if they can't afford it, who cares. Maybe if the lower class had affordable health care, they would be able to rise above their circumstances and move into another class? But oh... we don't want social mobility, oh no!

I think introducing UHC to the U.S., while noble, will fall on deaf ears. Too many people are resistant to it because the idea of distributing the health burden among everyone is too foreign a concept, and the Cold War days have instilled a fear of anything socialist (despite the fact that there are already socialist systems in the U.S.).

I had a friend in Canada who was anti-UHC and he got into a horrible car accident that required several surgeries on his back, physiotherapy, and a wheelchair for several years. He changed his tune quickly when he realized that without UHC he'd have to sell everything he owned to afford that treatment.
 
I agree with CC in the sense that better reform of the insurance companies could relieve a lot of tension for millions of people, but with the level of corporate socialism that exists in the U.S. today, that is highly unlikely. It's because of the corrupt corporations that UHC is on the table in the first place, since the insurance companies make it so complicated and unaffordable to use their services.

I disagree with what has been said about health care not being a right but a privilege. Maybe in the U.S. this is the case, but in all the other developed nations that provide UHC, it is legislated. I know in Canada it is.

The only problem with regulating the insurance companies is that it still doesn't address the fact that millions of people cannot afford the monthly premiums anyway, and thus are left blowing in the wind; but because the U.S. is so anti-socialist when it comes to helping the poor, the typical response has always been: the lower class isn't important so if they can't afford it, who cares. Maybe if the lower class had affordable health care, they would be able to rise above their circumstances and move into another class? But oh... we don't want social mobility, oh no!

I think introducing UHC to the U.S., while noble, will fall on deaf ears. Too many people are resistant to it because the idea of distributing the health burden among everyone is too foreign a concept, and the Cold War days have instilled a fear of anything socialist (despite the fact that there are already socialist systems in the U.S.).

I had a friend in Canada who was anti-UHC and he got into a horrible car accident that required several surgeries on his back, physiotherapy, and a wheelchair for several years. He changed his tune quickly when he realized that without UHC he'd have to sell everything he owned to afford that treatment.

The poor can rise to another class if they put the effort in to it.
It is not in the realm of fantasy.

Health insurance is affordable if most people buy it. They just choose not to buy it. People do not have their priorities straight that is why we should not support UHC.

If you can afford cable or satellite television but you won't get rid of it to get your health insurance then that is your problem and not anyone elses.

Lastly what is more important your stuff or your life? It seems your friend values material things more than his life.
 
That isn't my understanding.
The coverage is being denied because it really isn't covered.
It is being denied because of the minutia of the details in the contract. Experimental treatment. Treatment that really wouldn't extend a persons life.
Patient really did not fit the criteria even though it would extend their life.
Cost caps. Etc..

This is what insurance companies want you to believe. As a provider, I can tell you of NUMEROUSexperiences when an insurance company over ruled a treatment that was absolutely covered in the patient's insurance plan because they believed that it wasn't necessary...even after I sent documentation proving that it was. Why did they do this? Only one reason: greed.

If this is what is happening, then by all means, yet somehow it seems that it would be more vulnerable to fraud.

It's what's happening. And, to me, it is an example of unethical business practices.

Ok.
I do have a problem with this because when you change to a new insurer you are receiving insurance from them for the first time.
It isn't there problem that you have a preexisting condition, so they should be allowed to charge higher premiums to provided cover that obviously they would have to start paying out if they accepted the person.

I suppose I could be persuaded to agree to this, if the pre-existing condition clause was totally eliminated, and the premium increase wasn't so ridiculous that it was untenable.

Ok. Agreed to disagree.
Less regulation should result in a lower overall cost that would then be transferred to the insurer, and on to the insured.

The "trickle down" economic theory always fails because of greed. We will have to agree to disagree.
 
I'll go over some of these things again, as I have done a few times.

I agree that there needs to be more regulation in the healthcare system, not less, but only in some areas. But the focus needs to be in the relationship between the provider and insurer, because this is a two way street. Yes, insurance providers do have people looking at treatments and rejecting payment of those treatments to the provider, based on what they believe to be treatments that are unecessary. While its true that these people do not see the patient, the treatment is reviewed by a liscenced medical professional. The insurers pay good money to these people. In the case of an RN, he/she could make well more than they could working at a hospital. However, providers are more willing to do "more tests" for insured patients, than they will for uninsured patients. Because the insurance companies have the deep pockets. This back and forth fight between health insurer, and provider over what is necessary, is a HUGE part of the problem IMO. This is an area that needs regulation. However, it is my opinion that the regulation needs to come from the states and not the federal government. Insurance laws are written by state legislatures and are overseen and enforced by a commisioner of insurance in each state. Devising a national regulatory system would infringe on the ability for states to retain control over the health care providers and insurers under their rule.

The payment situation is absurd, and its because of the back and forth struggle between insurer and provider. I received a bill for $350 almost a year after my son was born, from my wifes anethesia. I called to find out why I was getting a bill for $350 dollars, since we hadn't been to the hospital for nearly a year. Supposedly there was a dispute between the two that had to be settled before they could bill us. Now thats not a huge bill in this case, but its an inconvience for sure.

If we were to remove the stipulation that pre-existing conditions have to be covered, then insurers will have to be allowed to charge additional premium because of pre-existing conditions. Insurance by definition is the transfer of risk. The greater the risk they assume, the greater the premium they charge. Thats the insurance market in a nutshell. The reason they do not cover pre-existing conditions, is because they are trying to keep the premiums lower. Anybody who seeks to reform this, had better be careful because if they try to be noble and force insurers to cover pre-existing, and deny them the ability to charge for it, will seriously screw everything up and insurance companies would either collapse(more unemployment for you to deal with Mr. President) or they would find a way to increase premium in an "unrelated" way, to cover costs.

Also I remember reading on Obama's website during the campaign season, that he would essentially remove the cap on insurance policies. I do not know if he still seeks that, but that would be a disaster of epic proportions. As I said before, insurance is a transfer of risk. If we tell insurance companies they must take on an infinite amount of risk, what do you think that will do to premiums? ALL insurance policies, regardless of what kind of insurance it is, has a policy limit. The higher the limit, the higher the premium. Insurance companies have deep pockets, but not that deep.

I can agree with much of what you say except two points:

1) Those that the insurance companies employ to review treatments are indeed trained professionals. It is still irrelevant. They do not see the patient. Reviewing files or hearing reports is completely different. As a provider, I see my own patients. If a colleague goes on vacation and asks me to cover, I am very uncomfortable doing that. Though they may tell me about them, and I may read about the case, I will NOT make any major treatment decisions, unless their is a major crisis. There are nuances that go along with working with a patient that don't go in the record. These people at insurance companies don't see these nuances. Further, it is not the job of these people to help provide the best care; it is the job of these people to save their company money. This aspect of insurance-provider care needs to be eliminated.

2) It needs to be in the hands of the federal government, not the states in order to provide conformity amongst policies, to head off confusion. I work in NJ, and my patients come from NJ. However, I deal with insurance companies from at least 10+ different states, as the companies these patients work for may have their home office in other states. Each of these states have different regulations, different paperwork requirements, etc... This is just another way for the system to break down and for payment to get denied. I once sent a request for service to an insurance company in Pennsylvania. After receiving no payment for 2 months (it takes that long or longer), they told me the home office was in Missouri. So, I sent it there. Same thing...2 months later, they told me that this patient's divisional home office was in California. So I sent it there. Same thing...2 months later, they told me that Pennsylvania was wrong, that that was where it was to be sent. This "round and round" process went on for 8 months. Further, each state had different regulations on how the paper work needed to be handled, requiring it to be sent back, more times, especially when they gave me wrong information. And all the while guess what? I wasn't getting paid for treatment. If this was an isolated incident, I wouldn't be complaining. But it's not. This is why many people in the medical field no longer accept any insurance...and why many cannot afford health care.

More regulation on the federal level, taken out of the states' hands in order to avoid the kinds of manipulations that occur, and to avoid the lack of conformity in dealing with companies is what needs to happen.
 
The poor can rise to another class if they put the effort in to it.
It is not in the realm of fantasy.

There are many barriers to social mobility: income, education, access to suitable employment, family obligations (poor families distribute more duties among themselves instead of hiring out), language (immigrants), racial biases, etc.

I don't think it's as easy as you make it seem. The rich don't want the poor to rise, they want them to stay right where they are.

Health insurance is affordable if most people buy it. They just choose not to buy it. People do not have their priorities straight that is why we should not support UHC.

Some people who need health insurance because of illnesses cannot get their foot in their door with insurance companies due to a pre-existing condition. That is a huge difference between UHC and private health insurance: regardless of pre-existing conditions, you get treated.

Many people who do get their foot in the door get slapped with ridiculous policies and restrictions after the fact. The insurance companies are corrupt and need regulation.

It's not so one-sided that you can JUST blame subscribers.

If you can afford cable or satellite television but you won't get rid of it to get your health insurance then that is your problem and not anyone elses.

This is a straw man if I ever saw one.

Lastly what is more important your stuff or your life? It seems your friend values material things more than his life.

Why should you have to choose between something you have worked your entire life to achieve and a recent health condition? Why should you have to throw it all away because the system is so anti-socialist and won't help you?

It makes no sense.
 
There are many barriers to social mobility: income, education, access to suitable employment, family obligations (poor families distribute more duties among themselves instead of hiring out), language (immigrants), racial biases, etc.

You must not know about all the social programs to help poor people then.

The federal government pays for food, higher education, job assistance, childcare, states and local governments in a lot of places offer free language training.

Racial biases are largely extinct and hardly play any role.

I don't think it's as easy as you make it seem. The rich don't want the poor to rise, they want them to stay right where they are.

I never said it was easy. Do you think all the rich people got that way so easily?

Some people who need health insurance because of illnesses cannot get their foot in their door with insurance companies due to a pre-existing condition. That is a huge difference between UHC and private health insurance: regardless of pre-existing conditions, you get treated.

If they had it before hand it wouldn't be a problem. It's called balancing risk.

**** happens and if you take a risk and fail there is no one to blame but yourself.

UHC will restrict access because of over consumption in the end its like being uninsured.

Many people who do get their foot in the door get slapped with ridiculous policies and restrictions after the fact. The insurance companies are corrupt and need regulation.

Insurance companies are the way they are because of the government.

It is a long history of government stupidity that started during WW2 and some of the regulations are completely asinine.

It's not so one-sided that you can JUST blame subscribers.

I'm not blaming subscribers, they actually bought the insurance.


This is a straw man if I ever saw one.

If I had $100 to lay down on a bet that nearly every single person who doesn't have health insurance has cable or sat tv I would so do it.

Why should you have to choose between something you have worked your entire life to achieve and a recent health condition? Why should you have to throw it all away because the system is so anti-socialist and won't help you?

Why should people throw away their hard earned money to support a socialist institution when they labored so long to get it?

Piss poor planing. Life is not a fairy tale, it can be cruel and people should plan for unexpected situations.

It makes no sense.

To me it makes perfect sense. People should be held accountable for their decisions.

If you enable crappy decision making it will never change.
 
Orius said:
It's because of the corrupt corporations that UHC is on the table in the first place, since the insurance companies make it so complicated and unaffordable to use their services.
Exactly!!!!

If the current system is the 'best in the world', as some claim, health care would be another one of those things we never think twice about.
 
Why should you have to choose between something you have worked your entire life to achieve and a recent health condition? Why should you have to throw it all away because the system is so anti-socialist and won't help you?
Because you are responsible for you, and I am not?
How do YOU have a right to MY money, epecially when YOU have money of your own?

It makes no sense.
 
Because you are responsible for you, and I am not?
How do YOU have a right to MY money, epecially when YOU have money of your own?

It makes no sense.

What the heck do you think insurance is? It is a pool of money that people pay into. The ones that get sick use other peoples money the one's that don't don't use the money.
 
What the heck do you think insurance is? It is a pool of money that people pay into. The ones that get sick use other peoples money the one's that don't don't use the money.
Yes it is. A pool of money that they chose to put into.
 
BWG said:
Exactly!!!!

If the current system is the 'best in the world', as some claim, health care would be another one of those things we never think twice about.

Your health is a bit more important than purchasing a television or choosing what color to paint your house.

That is why people think about it.

I don't understand why people are so willing to turn over heath care to government, when government hardly does anything right.

Can you name a successful program that government does right that everyone uses?

Doesn't change the fact that it is people using other peoples money.

It is a significant difference though.

If you want to not use a health insurance plan you can.

If you want to self insure you can.

If someone wants to come up with a new business model to address health related expenses they can and people can voluntarily use it.

There is a difference between voluntary socialism and forced socialism.
 
What the heck do you think insurance is? It is a pool of money that people pay into. The ones that get sick use other peoples money the one's that don't don't use the money.

Well people that have a lower risk factor insurance, in any kind of insurance, get charged a lower premium. Do you think the government would tax the unhealthy more than they would the healthy?
 
Your health is a bit more important than purchasing a television or choosing what color to paint your house.

That is why people think about it.

I don't understand why people are so willing to turn over heath care to government, when government hardly does anything right.

Can you name a successful program that government does right that everyone uses?

<Can you name a successful program that government does right that everyone uses?>= Medicare, not everyone but a lot.

Nothing is being forced on anyone. Obama has said that anyone who is happy with his or her health insurance will be able to do nothing. In this case doing nothing is their choice of keeping what they have.




It is a significant difference though.

If you want to not use a health insurance plan you can.

If you want to self insure you can.

If someone wants to come up with a new business model to address health related expenses they can and people can voluntarily use it.

There is a difference between voluntary socialism and forced socialism.


In other words your looking for a choice eh? That’s exactly what Obama is proposing as for as I know. You will be able to choose if you want something similar to Medicare, or a private insurance. What is wrong with having private insurance companies competing against Medicare? I thought that was the capitalist way. Cant have socialism now can we?
 
I think if Obama sent you a personal check for a million dollars, you would find a reason to complain about it.
That's what you get for thinking.
 
You must not know about all the social programs to help poor people then.

Yes and in every other developed nation, health care is one of them. The difference is that it doesn't just serve the poor, but rich and middle classes alike.

The federal government pays for food, higher education, job assistance, childcare, states and local governments in a lot of places offer free language training.

Only if you qualify. Not everyone does. Not everyone who applies for a loan gets one. Not everyone who asks for food stamps gets them. A minimum wage job is meaningless when you have a long-term illness that requires treatment and an insurance company won't give you a plan because of your pre-existing condition.

Racial biases are largely extinct and hardly play any role.

I disagree, but this is another debate altogether.

I never said it was easy. Do you think all the rich people got that way so easily?

Depends on the rich person. A small percentage of Americans hold most of American wealth... my guess would be that a lot of it is old money passed down.

If they had it before hand it wouldn't be a problem. It's called balancing risk.

**** happens and if you take a risk and fail there is no one to blame but yourself.

UHC will restrict access because of over consumption in the end its like being uninsured.

I'm not clear on your meaning here. UHC gives you treatment regardless if it's a new condition or not. It might not cover every little thing, but it will at least cover specialists and clinical/hospital procedures. That saves people a lot of hardship.

Insurance companies are the way they are because of the government.

I agree.

I'm not blaming subscribers, they actually bought the insurance.

I even mean subscribers of UHC. You keep putting the blame on them... it's their fault they are sick, it's their fault they don't have insurance, it's their fault they don't have a job and can't afford insurance, etc etc. It's not so cut and dry.

If I had $100 to lay down on a bet that nearly every single person who doesn't have health insurance has cable or sat tv I would so do it.

A bet is unnecessary, just a link to prove your assumption.

Why should people throw away their hard earned money to support a socialist institution when they labored so long to get it?

How much of their money is really being used to support UHC? A lot of the funds going to UHC are a result of reallocated government spending.

Piss poor planing. Life is not a fairy tale, it can be cruel and people should plan for unexpected situations.

I guess because I come from a country that is comparatively socialists, I don't understand your viewpoint at all. I don't support universal socialism with everything, but with health care I do. Health and education are the most important factors to a developed society, and if 40 million don't have access, something needs to change.

To me it makes perfect sense. People should be held accountable for their decisions.

If you enable crappy decision making it will never change.

I don't think it's a crappy decision, but a wise one. The only thing I'm worried about is how it will be implemented. Since America has never had socialized health care before, it will be an uphill battle to get it started. I think it is worth giving a chance.
 
Yes and in every other developed nation, health care is one of them. The difference is that it doesn't just serve the poor, but rich and middle classes alike.



Only if you qualify. Not everyone does. Not everyone who applies for a loan gets one. Not everyone who asks for food stamps gets them. A minimum wage job is meaningless when you have a long-term illness that requires treatment and an insurance company won't give you a plan because of your pre-existing condition.



I disagree, but this is another debate altogether.



Depends on the rich person. A small percentage of Americans hold most of American wealth... my guess would be that a lot of it is old money passed down.



I'm not clear on your meaning here. UHC gives you treatment regardless if it's a new condition or not. It might not cover every little thing, but it will at least cover specialists and clinical/hospital procedures. That saves people a lot of hardship.



I agree.



I even mean subscribers of UHC. You keep putting the blame on them... it's their fault they are sick, it's their fault they don't have insurance, it's their fault they don't have a job and can't afford insurance, etc etc. It's not so cut and dry.



A bet is unnecessary, just a link to prove your assumption.



How much of their money is really being used to support UHC? A lot of the funds going to UHC are a result of reallocated government spending.



I guess because I come from a country that is comparatively socialists, I don't understand your viewpoint at all. I don't support universal socialism with everything, but with health care I do. Health and education are the most important factors to a developed society, and if 40 million don't have access, something needs to change.



I don't think it's a crappy decision, but a wise one. The only thing I'm worried about is how it will be implemented. Since America has never had socialized health care before, it will be an uphill battle to get it started. I think it is worth giving a chance.

F O S ! We have been handing out free health care for many decades. Anyone under age 18 ...,"will not be refused health care ,regardless of ability to pay". The VA health care system is socialized medicine. The health care delivered to the Mexicans arriveing by the millions and haveing babies by the tens of millions,( so it seems), is socialized medicine. Now I recommend that all of you panick stricken right and left wing nut cases take pill. :2wave:
 
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