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Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

Oh you mean like UHC in Europe!

I'm not sure... I was thinking like the health insurance aspect stays more or less the same, but where those that can't afford wouldn't be left on the street to die either...

If that's like UHC in europe then it's probably a bad idea :p (not because european health care sucks, I'm saying just cause everywhere is a pretty sh&%^y system, and so it would take something new and outside the box to fix it)
 
Was it not just the other day a US republican stated that healthcare coverage was a privilege not a right? Shows the attitude towards your fellow man there.. heartless.

Problem with this debate is that it is buried in half truths, distortions, omissions and petty partisans bull**** than the facts.. and that is just from the anti UHC people..

Not heartless.
Heartless is places like Kanuckistan where you have no choice.
Where waiting lists substitute as "care".

Medical is a business. Not a right.
You pay and you get.
Those that don't have no right to complain about the service others are paying for them to receive.
They should be thanked profusely, not pissed on.

The best systems are those free of government intervention.
Where competition drives down cost and improves services.

I know it's tough for a Euro to understand.
You folks wait 30 minutes for service in a half empty restaurant.
 
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WTF is a "health-care czar"?



Later it explains that this "czar" will be the point person to discuss options with Congress. Is the H&HS secretary position not allowed to speak to Congress? Here's a genius idea for cutting back government spending. Quit creating duplicate positions. We didn't need a war czar(because we have a Sec Def) and we don't need a healthcare czar(because we have a Sec of HHS).

I have a feeling Obama is going to try to fix everything, and end up fixing nothing. I mean, I'm not against healthcare reform and I have outlined where i think problems are many times in the past. But how much money does Obama think we can spend on everything?

Well said, Crip and let me add that I think he's trying to do way too much, way too fast. Jeeper, maybe he IS believing all the hype that he is the messiah. :2razz:
 
Was it not just the other day a US republican stated that healthcare coverage was a privilege not a right? Shows the attitude towards your fellow man there.. heartless.

Problem with this debate is that it is buried in half truths, distortions, omissions and petty partisans bull**** than the facts.. and that is just from the anti UHC people..

Health care is NOT a right. It IS a privilege. That's the problem with you PeteEu, you mistake reality for Utopian fantasy.

Just like you do NOT have a right to a home, you have the privilege of buying a home.

You do not have the RIGHT to a car, you have the privilege to one.


People seem to think that because it's a an important part of life, to see a doctor, to live in a house and to drive a car, that it should be given to you.
The belief that one should work hard and manage their money and their time towards ensuring that they have these vital things has given way to the poisonous belief that one is entitled to certain things, and that the government should provide it.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Disagree because of my qualifier. If you have insurance and switch companies for whatever reason, the pre-existing condition limitation should not apply. If you are getting first time insurance, I agree with your position.

If you have standard health insurance and start coverage with another company within 63 days, there are no pre-existing condition limitations. The new company is required to treat your illness as a covered illness. If you wait until 64 days, you're screwed.

That's why you have to be careful when you change employment. If your new employer has a waiting period that could extend beyond 63 days, you should always get Cobra coverage from your old emplyer so that no pre-existing limitations will apply.
 
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My problem with this is not that Obama wants to do something about the Health Care system, my problem is that he is using the same fear type tactics that Bush did to get things he wants done.

If anything this needs EXTREME discussion, from all sides.

Obama, stop playing the fear tactics on the economy.

Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system - CNN.com

I do not agree that he is using fear, I think that this country finally has a that president is finally willing to call a spade a spade. Healthcare costs are out of control and action must be taken.

It seems to me that people regularly are upset whenever any president attempts to act quickly on their agenda. This was true of Bush and will be the same for Obama. Yet, the Executive Branch is not to be as slow moving as the Legislative. Even in the Federalist Papers, Hamilton describes the role of the executive in, I believe 80, and says that the branch should be swift moving to act and lead the country.

Obama is simply doing just that, acting on the things that must be done. It will not happen in two-weeks, as Congress must act as well, and in accordance with their nature they will move much more slowly. I can only see improvements to the healthcare system result of all of this, as all sides are at the table.
 
Deregulate? If you mean bring competition, I agree. Let the insurance companies compete against the most efficient health care system in the country.
That's part of it. Get the AMA's influence in limiting med school enrollment by federal law out of the picture as well to get rid of the artificial doctor shortages as well, also, tort reform in what constitutes a meritorious healthcare related lawsuit. Regulation is good, overregulation as it stands now, not good.
 
Health care is NOT a right. It IS a privilege. That's the problem with you PeteEu, you mistake reality for Utopian fantasy.

Just like you do NOT have a right to a home, you have the privilege of buying a home.

You do not have the RIGHT to a car, you have the privilege to one.

Ahem, 'scuse me, but that IS NOT FACT.

See, I'm one of those that view healthcare as a right. Your analogy fails miserably because like you, I don't agree that a car and house are a right. If someone is in dire need of a doctor, I could not morally allow that NOT to happen. If you have no problem letting them die, then you'll have to live with that decision. As for me, I cannot. It's that simple.

If someone is in dire need of a car, I will tell them to take the bus.

If someone is in dire need of a house, I will tell them to go to a shelter or rent.

See the difference?
 
The problem with the health care industry isn't too much regulation, it's not enough. I am not for nationalized health care. However, the excesses, manipulations, and control that insurance companies have over a provider's ability to treat their patients is not only a major problem procedural wise, but a huge problem cost wise. Some things that need to be regulated to fix the health care system are:

Tort reform
Health care decisions placed in the provider's hands, not the insurance company's
Simple, universal form/payment systems
Elimination of pre-existing condition limitation when switching insurance

I'm sure there are other issues that need regulation. Unfortunately, I only see a half hearted effort on the Obama administration to address these complicated issues. Seems like he's going for the quick fix to gain points with the public.
I think we do have overregulation, but only because it seems that where we do regulate we do so incorrectly. I agree with everything you have listed which you feel needs changing.
 
Ahem, 'scuse me, but that IS NOT FACT.

See, I'm one of those that view healthcare as a right. Your analogy fails miserably because like you, I don't agree that a car and house are a right. If someone is in dire need of a doctor, I could not morally allow that NOT to happen. If you have no problem letting them die, then you'll have to live with that decision. As for me, I cannot. It's that simple.

If someone is in dire need of a car, I will tell them to take the bus.

If someone is in dire need of a house, I will tell them to go to a shelter or rent.

See the difference?

People in dire need of a doctor aren't refused treatment. Even in our system. Hippocratic oath and all.
 
Just because you have checks, doesn't mean there is money in the account.

No, no, no...

Not to the lib.

Checks = money.
Loans = charity.
Responsibility = Collectivism
Cuts = Spending

It takes a village idiot to care for the village, and we've done elected are-selves one.

Can't wait to see which failed systems our village leader is going to model this hocus pocus after.

Iwill we be graced by one of his grade school modeled community organizer pow-wows, where all break up into little groups and discuss what super duper ideas they have for our lives and livelihoods?

Or will it be modeled after Hillary's Stalin like stink tank? Where any of the 500 who reveal any of the plan... will be shot!
 
The problem with insurance and insurance companies is that people don't pick their own. Their employer picks it. Under the current system in the US, there is very little competition in group health insurance that has anything to do with what is best from a consumer's POV. Although the comsumer has very little say in the insurance their employer selects, they are paying for it. It is a cost of employing a person.

Group insurance is subject to all kinds of mandates. For example, pregnancy coverage is always included even if there is no possibility of any of the group becoming pregnant. In some jurisdictions, In Vitro Fertilization coverage is mandated. Having a baby may be very important to a woman but I don't see how her wanting it should translate into everyone else having to pay higher insurance. In some, athletic trainer coverage is mandated. Does anyone want to try to explain why everyone should have to pay higher insurance so a few could have a personal trainer?

Some years ago, group coverage was much cheaper than an individual policy. Now, because of mandates and other regulations required for employer paid group policies, you can get individual insurance cheaper even though the administrative and sales costs for the individual policy is much higher.

If a person was picking their own insurance, most would shop for the coverage they wanted at the best price they could get. Insurance companies would have to compete on price and quality. Slow pay or denial of payment would become significant in a person choosing a company. Some companies would also offer continuing coverage as a way to get people to change.

There are some insurance companies that pay promptly and only deny claims when there is a valid reason. There are others that routinely deny payment or are just slow pay as a way of reducing cost. With employer paid insurance, the employer's goal is to get the lowest cost insurance that will still be good enough, or at least sound good enough, to let them attract and keep employees. The individual employee rarely has any say in the coverage or the company's payment tendencies.

IMO, employers should not be in the business of brokering insurance for their employees. Everyone should buy their own the same why they buy a car or the insurance for that car.

For those that cannot get private insurance because of pre-existing conditions, the government should provide some means for them to get coverage for those specific conditions.

For those that truly cannot afford insurance the government should provide some means for them to pay for it but let them choose the company and coverage and provide some sort of incentive for them to make wise choices.

Concerning CMS (Medicare, Medicaid, etc), if it is so great, why are so many doctors opting out? For some specialties, it may be fine but for others it is a disaster. Many practices in some specialties simply do not take CMS paid patients. One of the services we provide is giving the practice the ability to track their costs and expenses with filtering, one of which is the payor. It is very unusual that they are not shocked when they see the numbers from CMS cases. They usually know that CMS pay at a lower rate but it’s a real eye-opener when they see the actual payments vs their expenses. In some specialties they always lose money on CMS cases.

As an example, CMS pays about 15% of what private payors pay for anesthesia services. They do not cover the cost of the provider. The business has to take the loss to provide the service. If they do not have a large percentage of CMS paid patients, they will eat it as a cost of doing business at that hospital/surgery center. When an anesthesia group is bidding to provide the coverage for a hospital, one of their main considerations is the payor mix. If there is high percentage of CMS patients many groups will either decline to even bid or will require a stipend from the hospital.

As long as the consumer is not paying the bill, either directly or though their choice of insurance, there is no incentive for them to be concerned about cost. I would bet almost everyone would be driving a more expensive car if they could pick whatever they wanted and someone else would pay for it.

For those that do not believe in competition, spare me. We will never agree, so why engage.
 
Ahem, 'scuse me, but that IS NOT FACT.

See, I'm one of those that view healthcare as a right. Your analogy fails miserably because like you, I don't agree that a car and house are a right. If someone is in dire need of a doctor, I could not morally allow that NOT to happen. If you have no problem letting them die, then you'll have to live with that decision. As for me, I cannot. It's that simple.

If someone is in dire need of a car, I will tell them to take the bus.

If someone is in dire need of a house, I will tell them to go to a shelter or rent.

See the difference?

And if someone is in dire need for a doctor, I will tell them to go to a public hospital. There, they will be treated for free. The only caveat is they will probably end up waiting 2-3 hours to see the doctor, just like people do in countries that have UHC.

I believe a great deal of our health care problems could be solved by enacting the following simple laws:

1. Enact tort reform so that doctors don't feel compelled to have every imaginable and expensive test performed just so they don't have to sit in front of a jury while a lawyer grills them on why they didn't get useless tests performed.

2. Allow the doctors to deduct the cost of providing free health care from their income. I believe doctors would gladly provide free health care if they could at least recoup some of the cost of doing so.
 
People in dire need of a doctor aren't refused treatment. Even in our system. Hippocratic oath and all.


Right.

So IT IS a right. Aint that the fundamental root of it all?

So change your system, and save yourselves a ton of administrative costs. It's your opportunity to do it better than anywhere else in the world, because you have the luxury of taking notes from all other industrialized countries. This is why I think Obama is moving way too fast.
 
Everyone has the right to health care, just as everyone has the right to a house and food and clothing.

The government exists to protect that right -- to make sure that people are not denied those things based on race, sex, religion, etc.

The government does NOT exist to provide you with the means to exercise those, or any other, rights.
 
The problem with insurance and insurance companies is that people don't pick their own. Their employer picks it. Under the current system in the US, there is very little competition in group health insurance that has anything to do with what is best from a consumer's POV. Although the comsumer has very little say in the insurance their employer selects, they are paying for it. It is a cost of employing a person.

The employer is also a consumer, however. Its not just "Hey we have this one insurance company that you have to have". Most of the time the employer foots the bill for the group health insurance as well as the individual. Its a shared cost between the two. The employer makes a decision on which health insurance company to select from, based on what premium they are going to have to pay and what they can afford. They change insurers all the time, especially small businesses. So to say that there isn't competition, is slightly misleading as the employer does have a choice between competing health insurance companies. It is true that the individuals choice in this scenario is that they either take the group health plan, or opt out an purchase private insurance themselves, 100% out of pocket.
 
Everyone has the right to health care, just as everyone has the right to a house and food and clothing.

The government exists to protect that right -- to make sure that people are not denied those things based on race, sex, religion, etc.

The government does NOT exist to provide you with the means to exercise those, or any other, rights.

So based on waht you wrote, you're one of those that would turn your back on someone who needs healthcare, but does not have the money to pay for it. Is that correct?
 
So based on waht you wrote, you're one of those that would turn your back on someone who needs healthcare, but does not have the money to pay for it. Is that correct?
Me, personally? Like if someone came up to me in that situatioin?
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on a lot of things.

What's that have to do with what I said?
 
I do not agree that he is using fear, I think that this country finally has a that president is finally willing to call a spade a spade. Healthcare costs are out of control and action must be taken.

Obama is simply doing just that, acting on the things that must be done.

I can only see improvements to the healthcare system result of all of this, as all sides are at the table.

I'll give you that he's calling a spade a spade. Unfortunately, he doesn't know what that means or how that plays into a full deck. Everyone knows that we have cost overruns. But he's not attempting to fix the issue. Instead he's just throwing money at the problem as a patch. He provides no support to the actual fixes.

Doing things to attempt to fix a problem is a noble thing and looks good. But doing the wrong thing can make it worse.


Middleground said:
See, I'm one of those that view healthcare as a right. Your analogy fails miserably because like you, I don't agree that a car and house are a right. If someone is in dire need of a doctor, I could not morally allow that NOT to happen.

I'm sorry but its your analogy that fails miserably. Ethically doctors can't refuse to treat life threatening conditions which don't put them at risk. Granted, transplant boards can still decide to let someone die by refusing them a new organ due to need and pre-conditions. But we aren't talking about treatment. We're talking about PAYING for the treatment.

Showing up to the county hospital gets you fixed up. Its the bill they send you afterwards that is the issue here. Somehow the we've got it in our heads that FREE health care is a right. I blame the Euro's and their slowly disintegrating socialized health care programs.
 
Right.

So IT IS a right. Aint that the fundamental root of it all?

So change your system, and save yourselves a ton of administrative costs. It's your opportunity to do it better than anywhere else in the world, because you have the luxury of taking notes from all other industrialized countries. This is why I think Obama is moving way too fast.

The hippocratic oath, so far as I know, is not covered or discussed in the Constitution, therefore it is not a right, but rather a declaration from within the medical community. UHC is not needed for them to uphold their Hippocratic oath.

Also I'd like to hear the argument that a UHC system would be more efficient in the delivery of healthcare to individuals in a non-life threatening situation, than the payor system. And why do people assume the US will do it better? Have you ever been here in the US, to fill out paperowrk for any government related benefit? Its crazy the amount of paper work one has to go through. I refuse to go to the VA hospital system for just that reason. My private hospital delivers superior care, with quicker efficiency than the government one I would have access to. During active duty military service, I basically had what amounts to UHC. I didn't have to have any insurance, but it took me 4 months before i could get in to see about getting a contact prescription. The next time I needed one, I just went to an eye doctor and paid out of pocket and had my contacts that day. I've been on both sides of the issue, and the private industry far outpaces the government one here in America. Hell, they even have to refer some military members out to private hospitals, because they don't have the equipment to treat some of the things that need to be treated. I know Canadians go down to the Rochester Clinic in Minnesota, and pay out of pocket, for the expediency their government cannot provide. If we adopt a UHC system, where are you guys going to go for expedient care on non-life threatening issues? Cause we ain't going to have it anymore.
 
The employer is also a consumer, however. Its not just "Hey we have this one insurance company that you have to have". Most of the time the employer foots the bill for the group health insurance as well as the individual. Its a shared cost between the two. The employer makes a decision on which health insurance company to select from, based on what premium they are going to have to pay and what they can afford. They change insurers all the time, especially small businesses. So to say that there isn't competition, is slightly misleading as the employer does have a choice between competing health insurance companies. It is true that the individuals choice in this scenario is that they either take the group health plan, or opt out an purchase private insurance themselves, 100% out of pocket.
Of course the employer has a choice but they rarely look at the payment tendencies of the insurance companies they are considering. They are looking primarily at the cost vs the listed benefits.

If one insurance company gets the businesss because they have lower costs because they are slow pay or deny claims frequently, the employer only gets concerned when their high value employees get pissed because a doctor they want to see will not accept that insurance.
 
I'll give you that he's calling a spade a spade. Unfortunately, he doesn't know what that means or how that plays into a full deck. Everyone knows that we have cost overruns. But he's not attempting to fix the issue. Instead he's just throwing money at the problem as a patch. He provides no support to the actual fixes.

Doing things to attempt to fix a problem is a noble thing and looks good. But doing the wrong thing can make it worse.

Explain to me how you feel that he is only throwing money at the problem please. From what I have understood, he has called a committee of representatives from all sides in order to come-up with the best solutions to the problems plaguing healthcare.
 
Of course the employer has a choice but they rarely look at the payment tendencies of the insurance companies they are considering. They are looking primarily at the cost vs the listed benefits.

If one insurance company gets the businesss because they have lower costs because they are slow pay or deny claims frequently, the employer only gets concerned when their high value employees get pissed because a doctor they want to see will not accept that insurance.

Well the market works in that favor as well. If the claims issue is as bad as you say it could be(and it does happen), then the employer can change companies at any time, including changing back to the other provider that they may have liked better. There is nothing stopping an employer from changing insurance companies, whenever they want to. For any business, its up to them to decide whats most important, and they need to have the flexibility to change whenever they need to, when circumstances arise that affect their ability to do business.

But there is one thing I would like to see wiped out. The idea behind preferred providers. I say if you have an insurance plan, from a reputable provider(insurance companies are rated by AM Best), then there should be no change in your deductible or co-pay requirements. It shouldn't matter which doctor or hospital you go to, and the regional preferences of health insurance companies just doesn't make sense to me. Why should one pay for health coverage, and then be penalized for using it somewhere other than one certain hospital system?
 
Explain to me how you feel that he is only throwing money at the problem please. From what I have understood, he has called a committee of representatives from all sides in order to come-up with the best solutions to the problems plaguing healthcare.

Take a good look at his "committee". Also note that he already has already put forth his future health care initiatives without needing such a "committee". His ideology is going to conflict with what needs to be done for competitive health care.

Socialized health care is his goal and that requires throwing lots of money at the problem. But the removal of any patient "say so" or castrating malpractice suits almost completely won't go over well with his liberal buddies. I'm looking forward to when they get to the part about when they put "pain" on the lowest of low priorities for treatment like they do in other nations.
 
Take a good look at his "committee". Also note that he already has already put forth his future health care initiatives without needing such a "committee". His ideology is going to conflict with what needs to be done for competitive health care.

Socialized health care is his goal and that requires throwing lots of money at the problem. But the removal of any patient "say so" or castrating malpractice suits almost completely won't go over well with his liberal buddies. I'm looking forward to when they get to the part about when they put "pain" on the lowest of low priorities for treatment like they do in other nations.


I do not see what it is you are seeing, but tell me then, how do you think healthcare should be remedied. If it continues as is, then companies will no longer be capable of providing their employees coverage, and no one can afford the rates on their own.
 
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