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Thread: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    I would like to see evidence of that if you mean anyone other than deadbeats.
    What are deadbeats? People that cannot afford insurace?
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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Really? So you are saying that anything that someone makes a profit from should not be allowed if someone might die as a result?
    If in doing so lives are at a proven direct risk, then no. So, say a company makes higher profits by dumping toxic waste into a local water source and people will die from drinking the water, then the company has no right to pursue that avenue for profit.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The free market, through reduced demand, will eventually lower the cost of their education. Anyting else artificially inflates prices.


    And yet, you support plans that guarantee higher costs - in order to guarantee profit for hospitals and doctors - and force people to pay for the health care of others in order to create it.

    As soon as you are no longer responsible for paying for your health care, health care costs go up. If you want to reduce health care costs, you increase free-market forces by reducing the number of people that do not directly pay for their health care.
    How does supporting stronger avenues for preventative medicine translate into third party payees? I do not think a certain level of third-party pickup is avoidable. But ultimately I feel that preventative medicine will reduce healthcare costs tremedously.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    How does supporting stronger avenues for preventative medicine translate into third party payees?
    How is the preventative medicine paid for?

    I do not think a certain level of third-party pickup is avoidable.
    Then you support unnecessaruly high health care costs.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Is it so bad? We have a hybrid system in most countries. You have UHC with hospitals and you can if you wish and afford it have private insurance too. All this put together is cheaper and more effective than the US system, almost every single statistic shows this.
    And it creates a caste type system. Not only that but the private insurance will be more expensive because of government intervention.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The problem with this debate is simple. You have the radical right wingers who hate anything that is remotely connected to anything government unless it is something to do with guns. Because of this the only UHC systems that they want to mention are Canada's and the UK's. Now I dont know much about the Canadian system but I do know that the Uk's has been broken since Maggie Thatcher got her right wing hands on it, but sadly the UK system is STILL cheaper and more effective than the US. But that does not mean that UHC is a failure world wide.... quite on the contrary. Funny how they mention those 2 systems out of 20+ in the western world... Why not mention the Danish or the French? Or the German or Spanish? They are not perfect either, but they still cover all (including visiting Americans) and are cheaper by far than the US system and provide larger and better care.
    Cheaper is not better. In health care time to services rendered in vastly more important than cost.

    It doesn't matter if its cheaper when your dead from waiting.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    UHC systems around the world have one thing in common. Everyone is covered period. If you have cancer, you get treatment. If you have a busted knee then you get treatment. If you have a heart problem then you get treatment. Sure it might take a bit of time, but you do get treatment and it will not cost you your house. At worst you will be required to pay some part of the treatment and if you cant, then you still will get the treatment.
    And time is really important when you have cancer. If you wait to long it can become almost untreatable.

    What is more important your house or your life?


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Now you can make UHC in many different ways.

    You can go the Swiss way (thanks to their big Pharma companies..) and go 100% private, but mandatory. The Swiss have UHC, but that is via private insurance coverage that is mandatory. It is also the second most expensive system on the planet after the US. But the point is that everyone is covered. And the Swiss have been thinking of dumping their private system because of the costs, but have been blocked by the big pharma companies lobbying.

    Or you can go via a hybrid system where everyone is covered. In most countries that UHC today, you have freedom of choice of doctors (within reason of course), freedom of choice if you want to add to your healthcare coverage via private means. Also you do not want to wait (if there are waiting lists), you can just pay or have your private insurance company pay for treatment at a private hospital. Or you can just decline treatment. The choice is yours.

    Or you can go the Cuban way.. 100% government controlled. The kicker here.. even the Cuban system is cheaper and better in many areas..
    No matter how cheap they are you have to wait to use service way longer than you do in the U.S.

    If I need any surgery I can get it next week after seeing a specialist this week.

    You guys have to wait weeks to see some specialist and wait even longer to get surgery.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Personally I like the hybrid way, as it gives far more choice and secures the health of the nation... which is what we are talking about. Cant have people walking around spreading disease because they cant afford simple treatments can we now...
    People will do that with or with out UHC.

    The reason the price mechanism is broken is because of government intervention.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Like it or not, the US healthcare system is broken. Your insurance costs are insane, your standard of care for what you pay is pathetic and with all that money spent by the US on healthcare, 40+ million American's are officially without healthcare coverage. Sure they can go to the emergency room, but that is just adding to the overall cost and is far far more expensive for society as a whole, and putting a strain on emergency rooms (which dont help since there are fewer and fewer emergency rooms).
    That 40 million number is such a joke.

    Most of those people can afford insurance they just don't buy it because they think they don't need it.

    I think only about 5 million of those people can't actually afford it.

    It sucks not being able to get health insurance but you know what it takes thinking to make it in this world.

    Stop being an enabler when it comes to people not taking care of themselves.
    I am not responsible for anyone else except those I choose to help.

    The world can be dangerous and unpredictable we should not be shielding people from their own stupid decisions.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    What are deadbeats? People that cannot afford insurace?
    Quote Originally Posted by Random House Dictionary, Random House, Inc. 2009
    deadbeat 1 (děd'bēt') Pronunciation Key
    n.
    One who does not pay one's debts.
    A lazy person; a loafer.
    Are dictionaries available in Canada or is it just that everyone is waiting around for the govenment to bring them one.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    If in doing so lives are at a proven direct risk, then no. So, say a company makes higher profits by dumping toxic waste into a local water source and people will die from drinking the water, then the company has no right to pursue that avenue for profit.
    Better stop the production lines at Harley Davidson since they are making a profit (at least trying to) and I think it is a proven direct fact that people are being killed from riding them. Also I guess you are for shutting down the tobacco companies. I could go on for pages but hopefully you get the point.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    He's trying to fix everything too fast IMO. While I don't disagree with everything Obama is trying to fix, doing it too fast isn't going to help either.
    But delaying would only prolong the improvement that we need, right?

    My friend would like to get his kids college funds, house paid, new car, retirement money completely saved, and have enough for vacations for the next 10 years, but he isn't going to get all of that money at once. It takes time.
    Yeah, true, but there are many Americans who complain that they need help fast.


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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Was it not just the other day a US republican stated that healthcare coverage was a privilege not a right? Shows the attitude towards your fellow man there.. heartless.

    Problem with this debate is that it is buried in half truths, distortions, omissions and petty partisans bull**** than the facts.. and that is just from the anti UHC people..
    Show me where it states in the US Constitution that medical coverage is a right and then we'll talk.
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

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    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Are dictionaries available in Canada or is it just that everyone is waiting around for the govenment to bring them one.
    *shakes head*

    No need to be snarky, TOJ.

    Let's start with lazy. It's a pretty broad assumption, don't you think? Lazy as in not wanting to work? Lazy in someone being a couch potato? And what does that have to do in relation getting healthcare in Canada?


    One who does not pay debts. I'm asking which debts???? Their bills, their mortgage, their Visa???? So according to you, everyone that has debt is a deadbeat.

    Sorry for wanting clarification.

    .
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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