Page 7 of 14 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 136

Thread: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

  1. #61
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I disagree, there are many people now that have no insurance nor can afford to pay out-of-pocket, and yet go to the hospitals everyday. That is a big factor in driving healthcare costs up.
    That's because someone else pays for the services given to these people.
    If people are required to pay for their own health care, the costs will go down.

    If you advocate a system where someone other than the end-user pays for his own health care, you -necessarily- advocate a system that will drive health care costs up.

  2. #62
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:49 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,323

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Does it have to be in the Constitution in order for it to be a right?
    Awesome question. The answer is no, because the Constitution does not bestow any rights. Surprise, the Bill of Rights is really a misnomer, because it merely declares limits on Congress with regard to certain inalienable, existing rights.

    If hospitals treat anyone who needs to be treated, then who pays for it? My guess... American taxpayers.
    You should have said American public. Because it is recouped through increased healthcare prices, not taxes.


    So again I ask... is healthcare a right for every American? It's either a yes or a no. If it's a no, they you're current system is the way to go. Insurance companies can decided what is allowed based-on a person's coverage.

    And for those that do not have any insurance, the taxpayer foots the bill, which is kinda rediculous when you think about it.
    The true answer is no. It may sounds heartless, but the the Constitution doesn't have a heart. That's up to the public at large.

    Right. But it's still taxpayers that pay, no? And--bottom line-- many who do not have insurance, do fall through the cracks. You and I both know that. They delay seeing a doctor because they do not want to go through the ordeal of paperwork, and being grilled for money cuz I do know that's what happens.
    Yes, and as tragic as that sounds, it's not up to the Federal govt to force the public to pay for it.

    The Euro nations are good with this. Canada, no. Yet ask a Canadian what's the most important Canadian right, and most will tell you our healthcare.
    And that is their right because they are another nation with another constitution.


    Me, I have a healthcard. I flash it when I go see a doc, and that's the last I have to deal with anything. Really. And you don't have to fill out any paperwork through your insurance?
    Ditto above


    UHC doesn't have to be that way. Seems to me your military does a poor job of it.



    Yes, that does happen. Just like we get Yanks up here to buy meds and use our Healthcare. Interesting, eh?
    Nothing wrong with finding better deals, that's ingenuity.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  3. #63
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Does it have to be in the Constitution in order for it to be a right?
    No. See Amendment IX.
    However, something being a right in no way entitles you to have someone else pay for your exercise of said right.

  4. #64
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:54 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,090

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I'm not sure... I was thinking like the health insurance aspect stays more or less the same, but where those that can't afford wouldn't be left on the street to die either...

    If that's like UHC in europe then it's probably a bad idea :P (not because european health care sucks, I'm saying just cause everywhere is a pretty sh&%^y system, and so it would take something new and outside the box to fix it)
    Is it so bad? We have a hybrid system in most countries. You have UHC with hospitals and you can if you wish and afford it have private insurance too. All this put together is cheaper and more effective than the US system, almost every single statistic shows this.

    The problem with this debate is simple. You have the radical right wingers who hate anything that is remotely connected to anything government unless it is something to do with guns. Because of this the only UHC systems that they want to mention are Canada's and the UK's. Now I dont know much about the Canadian system but I do know that the Uk's has been broken since Maggie Thatcher got her right wing hands on it, but sadly the UK system is STILL cheaper and more effective than the US. But that does not mean that UHC is a failure world wide.... quite on the contrary. Funny how they mention those 2 systems out of 20+ in the western world... Why not mention the Danish or the French? Or the German or Spanish? They are not perfect either, but they still cover all (including visiting Americans) and are cheaper by far than the US system and provide larger and better care.

    At the same time you have an American people that associate UHC with the Soviet Union and communism basicly. And this is just a wrong assumption. It might have been correct in the 1950s but in today's world.. hardly.

    UHC systems around the world have one thing in common. Everyone is covered period. If you have cancer, you get treatment. If you have a busted knee then you get treatment. If you have a heart problem then you get treatment. Sure it might take a bit of time, but you do get treatment and it will not cost you your house. At worst you will be required to pay some part of the treatment and if you cant, then you still will get the treatment.

    Now you can make UHC in many different ways.

    You can go the Swiss way (thanks to their big Pharma companies..) and go 100% private, but mandatory. The Swiss have UHC, but that is via private insurance coverage that is mandatory. It is also the second most expensive system on the planet after the US. But the point is that everyone is covered. And the Swiss have been thinking of dumping their private system because of the costs, but have been blocked by the big pharma companies lobbying.

    Or you can go via a hybrid system where everyone is covered. In most countries that UHC today, you have freedom of choice of doctors (within reason of course), freedom of choice if you want to add to your healthcare coverage via private means. Also you do not want to wait (if there are waiting lists), you can just pay or have your private insurance company pay for treatment at a private hospital. Or you can just decline treatment. The choice is yours.

    Or you can go the Cuban way.. 100% government controlled. The kicker here.. even the Cuban system is cheaper and better in many areas..

    Personally I like the hybrid way, as it gives far more choice and secures the health of the nation... which is what we are talking about. Cant have people walking around spreading disease because they cant afford simple treatments can we now...

    Like it or not, the US healthcare system is broken. Your insurance costs are insane, your standard of care for what you pay is pathetic and with all that money spent by the US on healthcare, 40+ million American's are officially without healthcare coverage. Sure they can go to the emergency room, but that is just adding to the overall cost and is far far more expensive for society as a whole, and putting a strain on emergency rooms (which dont help since there are fewer and fewer emergency rooms).
    PeteEU

  5. #65
    Guru
    tlmorg02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Ky
    Last Seen
    07-23-15 @ 11:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    3,347

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That's because someone else pays for the services given to these people.
    If people are required to pay for their own health care, the costs will go down.

    If you advocate a system where someone other than the end-user pays for his own health care, you -necessarily- advocate a system that will drive health care costs up.
    But ethically doctors cannot refuse emergent healthcare. I can assure you that if you are in a car accident and are severly injured, your last thought would be whether you could afford the treatment.

    If it were as simple as a person deciding whether or not to get plastic surgery, then I would agree with you completely. But many times in healthcare a person is not in a position to determine whether they can afford treatment. They are injured or dying of some disorder or disease and need medical attention. To place a price on human life is to remove the humanity from it all in the name of profit. Is this what you envision? Allowing people to die because they cannot afford to go to the hospital in order to drive costs down with market forces? Is this the way to do it in your opinion?

  6. #66
    Sage
    Renae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    San Antonio Texas
    Last Seen
    10-23-17 @ 10:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    38,972
    Blog Entries
    15

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Ahem, 'scuse me, but that IS NOT FACT.

    See, I'm one of those that view healthcare as a right.
    What you believe and what reality are... often are completely different things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Your analogy fails miserably because like you, I don't agree that a car and house are a right. If someone is in dire need of a doctor, I could not morally allow that NOT to happen. If you have no problem letting them die, then you'll have to live with that decision. As for me, I cannot. It's that simple.

    If someone is in dire need of a car, I will tell them to take the bus.

    If someone is in dire need of a house, I will tell them to go to a shelter or rent.

    See the difference?
    As usual, you're emotional inability to rationally discuss anything is on full display for all to see. Did I say anything about letting people die in the streets? NO.

    I said, and it's a fact, you do not have a RIGHT (because you have no clue what a right is, you just feel about issues and then rant incoherently about issues not even being discussed) to health care.

    You will not be refused emergency care if you are in an accident, or become ill. But this is not because it's a RIGHT. Please try to reign in your emotionalism MG.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  7. #67
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    But ethically doctors cannot refuse emergent healthcare.
    If they cannot refuse treatment, then they are required to treat some people for free. If they treat someone without knowing if they can pay, they know they might not get paid for their services.

    None of this changes anything I said.

  8. #68
    Guru
    tlmorg02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Louisville, Ky
    Last Seen
    07-23-15 @ 11:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    3,347

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    If they cannot refuse treatment, then they are required to treat some people for free. If they treat someone without knowing if they can pay, they know they might not get paid for their services.

    None of this changes anything I said.

    Of course it changes what you said. You are saying that doctors and hospitals treat "at their own risk," essentially. That is extremely non-capitalistic. That would be like requiring mechanics to repair cars that are broke down on the side of the road, and in doing so expect them to chance not being paid.

  9. #69
    Tavern Bartender
    Pussy Grabbin' Beaver
    Middleground's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada's Capital
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    22,458
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    What you believe and what reality are... often are completely different things.



    As usual, you're emotional inability to rationally discuss anything is on full display for all to see. Did I say anything about letting people die in the streets? NO.

    I said, and it's a fact, you do not have a RIGHT (because you have no clue what a right is, you just feel about issues and then rant incoherently about issues not even being discussed) to health care.

    You will not be refused emergency care if you are in an accident, or become ill. But this is not because it's a RIGHT. Please try to reign in your emotionalism MG.

    Please do not feed the trolls.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

  10. #70
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama calls for overhaul of U.S. health care system

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The problem with this debate is simple. You have the radical right wingers who hate anything that is remotely connected to anything government unless it is something to do with guns.
    Funny... I thought the oppositioin from the right had to do with forcing some people to provide the means for other people to exercise their rights.

    But hey -- go ahead and beat up that straw man.

Page 7 of 14 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •